Away tickets

[squirtyflower]

Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't die in a ditch to protect the SC allocation if the club said they were ending it. As I've said before, I'd still like something that gave people who didn't have the points a chance of tickets though.

But I remember going to away games in the 1970's, when I did quite a few, and being asked to get programmes for people who couldn't be arsed making the 14-hour round-trip on the football special to Ipswich. And there was no way of knowing if the sheet you presented to the ticket office with those tokens on was yours or someone else's.

Which is why I posted they were the original points whores in an earlier much longer post you may have missed.

My point was though, neatly circumvented, is that the Supporters Club’s allocation wasn’t the first.

Edit, your sheet had your name on it and was stamped when you collected your ticket so you couldn’t get another.

Back in those days your branch would ask for x tickets and the club didn’t care who they went to. Bit like today really.

 

[ninjamonkey]

Supporters Clubs will also play the game and advise certain people to get their own and then use their allocation on those with less points

Two bites at the cherry

Without a doubt that happens but on here all you get is people claiming that doesn't happen in their branch. Their branch is the one that's completely by the book that only gives tickets to people who would qualify themselves but that then raises the question why can't they get the tickets themselves? There's even an option for allowing friends/family to get the ticket for them and get it delivered to a different address if needs be so there's no reason to go through a supporters club if you have the points. If SC's didn't get an allocation the only people it would impact are the ones that skip the queue. Now even if just an incredibly small number of people abuse the system, surely it's worth doing as it has zero negative impact

But whether anyone likes it or not, the SC do have their own pot. Think of it like UEFA Cup qualification. You qualify for the UEFA Cup if you come 5th in the PL, win the FA Cup or win the League Cup. Some might argue that coming 6th or 7th in the PL after 38 games is far more deserving of a UEFA Cup place than a team that wins half-a-dozen cup games, that may not even be against PL opposition, to win the FA or League Cup. But that's the system.

You say the points system is "fairer" but is it? If you have Platinum, that's not fair as you could go to half the games while getting the same points as someone who goes to all the games. You can buy a ticket you have no intention of using and be seen as more "loyal" than the person who uses the ticket and has the expense of travelling to a game. And I know quite a few people, who defend the points system vigorously, who do just that. That means there's a group within the points system getting priority over others but who, strictly speaking, don't deserve it.

That's the entire point, nobody other than the beneficiaries of the SC's likes it. It shouldn't exist. Your UEFA analogy only begins to work if the FA Cup is an exclusive invite only competition in which only friends of the FA are allowed to join with it being at their discretion as to whether you're accepted, and even then they have the powers to give teams bys through rounds and the ability to disqualify any team without reason and ultimately decide the winner.

I never said the loyalty points system is 100% fair on everybody, I simply said it's fairer than needing to have mates running supporters clubs to get tickets. Something near enough everybody that doesnt have a connection to a SC would agree with. There's problems with the points system, many problems, but as I said earlier, pointing out other problems doesn't mean this isn't a problem too. Changes need to be made but coming up with a fairer system to the loyalty system is no easy task, and would be almost impossible to do without it impacting on a good number of people. But not giving SC's tickets is an easy change that City could make tomorrow with no negative impact on anybody who isn't somehow undeservedly benefitting from the system.

 

[Chris Smithson]

@Andyleg but it is not up to the season card rep surely? It is up to the Supporters' Club rep isn't it? Does that person have the guts to come on here and either join in this 'debate' or is he just content to hide? :-)

I ask in 'friendship' as I think that the season card rep is getting a lot of stick really. (JMHO)

The seasoncard rep is a member of the supporters club and doing a fine job himself protecting their (his) interests

Absolute joke. Just because he has a presence on this forum we all got conned into voting for him

He has to fight for an increase on the 60% or quit. Simple as that for me. He's done nothing so far other than try and bat away any discourse on the SC shambles

 

[edinburgh123]

Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't die in a ditch to protect the SC allocation if the club said they were ending it. As I've said before, I'd still like something that gave people who didn't have the points a chance of tickets though.

But I remember going to away games in the 1970's, when I did quite a few, and being asked to get programmes for people who couldn't be arsed making the 14-hour round-trip on the football special to Ipswich. And there was no way of knowing if the sheet you presented to the ticket office with those tokens on was yours or someone else's.

So, if I was to live, hypothetically in an area with no Supporters club, and nobody interested in joining one, in what way am I not penalised?

 

[Chris Smithson]

Here is an idea that the club could instigate for the derby. 75% of tickets are to be sold via the points system and not 60%, the rest they can allocate how they see fit. Wonder at what points level they would sell out at? As has been pointed out someone in a SC who is in the 93:20 seats has three bites of the cherr6 and even if not in 93:20 it’s still two bites. Us mere mortals have only one bite so how is that fair? Maybe if every SC member can only apply for an away ticket via their branch that might shake things up

Great idea the last part

Get them to pick which bucket they wish to pick from

 

[squirtyflower]

Without a doubt that happens but on here all you get is people claiming that doesn't happen in their branch. Their branch is the one that's completely by the book that only gives tickets to people who would qualify themselves but that then raises the question why can't they get the tickets themselves? There's even an option for allowing friends/family to get the ticket for them and get it delivered to a different address if needs be so there's no reason to go through a supporters club if you have the points. If SC's didn't get an allocation the only people it would impact are the ones that skip the queue. Now even if just an incredibly small number of people abuse the system, surely it's worth doing as it has zero negative impact




That's the entire point, nobody other than the beneficiaries of the SC's likes it. It shouldn't exist. Your UEFA analogy only begins to work if the FA Cup is an exclusive invite only competition in which only friends of the FA are allowed to join with it being at their discretion as to whether you're accepted, and even then they have the powers to give teams bys through rounds and the ability to disqualify any team without reason and ultimately decide the winner.

I never said the loyalty points system is 100% fair on everybody, I simply said it's fairer than needing to have mates running supporters clubs to get tickets. Something near enough everybody that doesnt have a connection to a SC would agree with. There's problems with the points system, many problems, but as I said earlier, pointing out other problems doesn't mean this isn't a problem too. Changes need to be made but coming up with a fairer system to the loyalty system is no easy task, and would be almost impossible to do without it impacting on a good number of people. But not giving SC's tickets is an easy change that City could make tomorrow with no negative impact on anybody who isn't somehow undeservedly benefitting from the system.

The brightest branch secretaries puts all their members on a Friends and Family list.
Then they can buy tickets when they drop down to their points as well getting an allocation.
Some here tell members that they can’t pass their ticket on to a mate, as they want it, and they give in because they won’t to keep in with the secretary.

 

[Andyleg]

@Andyleg but it is not up to the season card rep surely? It is up to the Supporters' Club rep isn't it? Does that person have the guts to come on here and either join in this 'debate' or is he just content to hide? :-)

I ask in 'friendship' as I think that the season card rep is getting a lot of stick really. (JMHO)

I think it's a perfectly valid point but why would the SC rep put his head above the parapet if Colin is prepared to do it for him?

Colin does however (and I am not in anyway suggesting it is pre-meditated) seem to be wearing his supporters club hat in this debate. He rightly argues the whole system is open to abuse and is being abused but also argues for retention of the existing SC allocation regardless of how branches see fit to allocate.

As a member of the ever dwindling 60% and particularly one who has been squeezed out further over the last 5 years (despite doing the shit midweek trips that only SC members attend) I, and others, do not feel that our interests are being represented in this debate.

I've never been a member of a SC but I've already attended Liverpool and Huddersfield on tickets allocated to a SC this season. Am I about to name names …. no because CM have no intention of closing that avenue to me. My point remains that the system is broke ….. look at in its entirety then instead of singling out the same supporters group time after time.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

City Matters has produced two positive things re away tickets to date:

The club has released the split of how allocations are distributed and the shocking fact that seasoncard holders only get 60% is now in the open.

The club are looking at the possibility of 5% of tickets going to a ballot only open to young supporters and this was going to come out of the 60%. It now seems like it will be coming out of all allocations but seasoncard holders will take the biggest hit overall.

Neither of these two points are overly positive but at least there is a debate about it. What would be interesting to know is what the split of away ticket allocations was say five years ago. The reason is that I suspect that seasoncard member allocation has probably been the go to one when the club has decided to allocate more to another group - seasonal hospitality in the main. I'd reckon that supporters clubs have maintained their overall percentage even if tickets per branch has gone down. The question then is why is the club targeting long term, committed supporters?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I think it's a perfectly valid point but why would the SC rep put his head above the parapet if Colin is prepared to do it for him?

Colin does however (and I am not in anyway suggesting it is pre-meditated) seem to be wearing his supporters club hat in this debate. He rightly argues the whole system is open to abuse and is being abused but also argues for retention of the existing SC allocation regardless of how branches see fit to allocate.

As a member of the ever dwindling 60% and particularly one who has been squeezed out further over the last 5 years (despite doing the shit midweek trips that only SC members attend) I, and others, do not feel that our interests are being represented in this debate.

I've never been a member of a SC but I've already attended Liverpool and Huddersfield on tickets allocated to a SC this season. Am I about to name names …. no because CM have no intention of closing that avenue to me. My point remains that the system is broke ….. look at in its entirety then instead of singling out the same supporters group time after time.

I am absolutely sick and fucking tired of having my words miscontrued, misrepresented or ignored. I've already put posters on my Ignore list over this thread and have asked Ric to deactivate my account recently, which he talked me out of. I'll say this one more time and then I won't be making any more substantive posts in this thread for the time being, regardless of the provocation. If people have anything constructive to say to me, feel free to do it through my City Matters email.

So here's where I stand. The current system (including both the points and ticket allocation systems) is what it is but in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of virtually all of us on here plus the club, it's a mish-mash that you certainly wouldn't implement from scratch if you were doing so. There are some good things in it but it's also open to multiple abuses and contains elements that can rightfully be categorised as unfair, although different people see some of these differently.

I think we pretty well all agree that Platinum is unfair, as is the amount of tickets going to seasonal hospitality members. I'd also say most of us agree that we'd welcome better oversight and policing of the ticket distribution process. I believe the club is on-board with this as well but the question is how far will they go to make it happen and I don't know the answer to that. We need to look at the whole process from top to bottom and ensure it's fit for purpose for where we are now and remove the abuses as far as we can.

As I've already made clear, in an ideal world I'd do it differently so that more tickets are going to independent season card holders, who I represent on City Matters. But there are also people on the committee who represent competing interests. And the club may feel that it needs the carrot of away tickets to protect what it sees as their interests in respect of those groups, which means there's little or nothing I can do. But I don't just represent those with over 20k points, I also represent those who bought their first season cards this season. And, as @edinburgh123 said, why should he be penalised if there isn't an SC branch near him? He shouldn't, which is why I believe there should be some way of people getting occasional away tickets even if they don't have 18k points but where genuinely loyal fans are at the front of the queue. Currently the SC allocation meets my requirement to have fans who maybe don't have the points able to go to games. So I "defend" it in that sense but it's definitely not perfect and I wouldn't see keeping it, when there's a better alternative, as a matter of principle. But nor would I necessarily consider it a resigning matter if the club decided to keep it.

I am not accepting any responsibility for the actions of branches or the SC in general. That's for the SC Executive and the club to sort out. I am a member of my local branch but joined pretty recently and have no position within that branch. They (Alkrington) hold regular meetings and I think most of the members would support the branch whether they had access to tickets or not. There's probably quite a few like that both locally and particularly those that aren't. I could be wrong but the branch I used to belong to (P&W) only appears to hold meetings on a very irregular basis (although I think they've had problems with a venue up till recently and haven't been a member for a few years).

I don't think I could be much clearer but if there's anything in this that still isn't clear then I'm happy to clarify.

 

[squirtyflower]

City Matters has produced two positive things re away tickets to date:

The club has released the split of how allocations are distributed and the shocking fact that seasoncard holders only get 60% is now in the open.

The club are looking at the possibility of 5% of tickets going to a ballot only open to young supporters and this was going to come out of the 60%. It now seems like it will be coming out of all allocations but seasoncard holders will take the biggest hit overall.

Neither of these two points are overly positive but at least there is a debate about it. What would be interesting to know is what the split of away ticket allocations was say five years ago. The reason is that I suspect that seasoncard member allocation has probably been the go to one when the club has decided to allocate more to another group - seasonal hospitality in the main. I'd reckon that supporters clubs have maintained their overall percentage even if tickets per branch has gone down. The question then is why is the club targeting long term, committed supporters?

Five years ago my mate asked City for the split.
They told him SC get 10% and corporate get 10% and about 75% went to loyalty points