Explosion at MEN Arena/Victoria Station

[blue roo]

That hashtag #prayformanchester is pissing me off. praying is whats causing this shite.

If people kept their spiritual ideas to themselves the world would be a far better place.

Religion needs universal outlawing, it's fucking archaic.

Hallelujah brother!

 

[Shirley]

Anyone on the 3,000 watch list who is considered a threat and has dual nationality should lose their right to remain in the U.K.
They are literally committing treason.

Not many countries in the world would tolerate these people.

 

[mancityvstoke]

While not down playing the horror of what happened at the Manchester Arena, my dad at the age of 14 took shelter during a 36 hour period 23/24th December 1940 during the Manchester Blitz, 820 civilians died in that raid, in a war where the estimates of total deaths range from 50 million to more than 80 million.

My father was the only child of my grandmother's second marriage, her first husband died at the Somme along with two of her brothers.

I've no idea what the 21st century holds and I'm too old to have any hope of seeing very much of it, but it would have to go some to match the carnage of the first half of the 20th century.

That was a proper war................we have no idea who our enemy is to attack back this time.

Terrorism is the new war.

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

Idiot of a supposed ex SAS serviceman on Sky News right now.

I wont give him the benefit of repeating what he is saying but it's shameful.

I'm not sure what your problem with his attitude is tbh. He's one of the no nonsense fuckers that we've been happy to have defending us over the years. That's why he was what he was I guess.

 

[nmc]

What is that supposed to mean? Sit and talk and try and be all nice and understanding about their concerns. Fuck that. Pacifism hasn't worked and this keeps happening. We are the most welcoming country in the world already! S

It's as if some people almost have sympathy for their actions. Any extremist needs getting rid of. Detained or more preferably a bullet in the head.

We tried that in NI - rounded loads of people up, threw them in jail, alienated the whole catholic community and it got us nowhere. As soon as we started talking - things got better but it took 25 years for us to learn that lesson. Today the catholic community hands over disidents but they wouldnt have done that in the 1970's. No one is talking pacificm but you cant just declare war on muslims - you need to be careful and make sure you sort the wheat from the chaf. Once you identify the bad ones deal with them but dont be heavy handed that will get us nowhere. If this person who did this was raising suspicions in teh islamic community we need to understand why no one said anything and understand how we can help good muslims rid their community (and ours) of these murderers.

 

[Machiavelli]

Two great posts from @Magicpole and @Blue Llama.

 

[mekonmcfc]

He sounded better than people spouting crap poetry and people making heart signs with their hands to TV cameras

what was said i missed it ?

 

[Chippy_boy]

The assertion that religion is irrelevant to the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism is false. It is the central tenet of their motivation. It is also the case that this phenomenon has its roots in Wahhabi doctrine established by a man of that name in the 17th century, who advocated a return to an Islamic form of government and society ordered around the Quran and the Haddiths.

This form of Islam is currently the structure which Saudi Arabia operates and for the last 30 years they have exported this through funding thousands of Mosques world wide. This is a fundamentalist form of Islam that sees as its ultimate goal, the establishment of a world wide Caliphate.

People dismiss these people as corrupting the Quran. The problem here is that within the Quran and Haddiths, there are texts that actually command efforts to establish a caliphate and to kill or subjugate non believers and the followers of this doctrine point to these writings from the Prophet as justification, and indeed compulsion to seek these ends.

Similar to Christianity, the vast majority of Muslims do not enact or pursue the more extreme aspects of the teachings. If anybody thinks such extreme instructions are not contained within the Bible, they haven't read it. They are there, but due to primarily to the Enlightenment, Reformation and separation of Church and State, we have seen an interpretation of the Bible that ignores the barbaric aspects and focuses upon the nice bits. The sanitised bits. Here are only a few commands from the God of the Bible

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude

Now, we don't do this, but, if you believed, or were convinced that these are commands from God, you would use them as the justification as Islamic Jihadists do. They point to similar 'divine command' writings and reject those who they see as betraying the true teachings.

Religion and adherence to its writings in a literal sense are 'the' motivation.

The last century has seen the ending of the Ottoman Caliphate after WW1,
The establishment of Isreal, the abortive wars in the Middle East,all of which have contributed to the radical clerics armoury to radicalise and promote violence in the pursuance of a world wide Caliphate. They point to the writings that command Muslims and ignore the condemnation of murder and ill treatment of the children of the book. Us.

Christianity had a reformation, as science proved that the writings of the bible were wrong in relation to how the world is and our place in the universe. Capernicus, Gallileo who showed the earth wasn't the centre of the universe and who was threatened with torture and indeed spent the last 15 years of his life under house arrest. We went from a literal interpretation of the bible to a more well, it's of its time, it's a guide, but, if it was written through divine guidance, the word of God, then who are we to dismiss it? This is what Fundamental Islamics believe. It is not permissible to deny that every word is truly the word of Allah.

We now are in the period of increased violence. Sectarian violence within Islam between Shia and Sunni interpretations. We see our involment in a military context in the Middle East as the the main tool used to redicalise.

They also point to things like Muslim bans in America. Support for an expansionist Isreal as examples of how Muslims are victims. They then point to the book. The book, like the bible contain instructions and indeed commands to violence in the achievement of gods wish for a world wide Caliphate.

The problem for any attempts to reduce tension are hampered by the simple fact that if you believe every word of a holy book is divine, men cannot challenge it. This will see an eternal number of people who, although in an extemely small minority of Muslims, are still in the millions if we look at the 1.2 billion people within this faith.

Religion is the motivator.

It is the justification they use. They actually believe they will be Martyrs. They believe it because the book tells them. 99% do not accept this and say it is a corruption of the Quran. The problem with this is it is in the Quran as those commands are in the bible. The extreme clerics point to them, point to the geopolitical situation and convince young men and women that God wants them to establish a caliphate through any means.

I have attached a link that gives a historic evolution of what we call extreme Islam, but what those within it see as the command of God. If we are to defeat it, contain it,we need to understand where it comes from. Who is promoting it. What are we doing to exasperate it. What we can do to support Muslims who are happy to live in a secular society to combat the radicalisation of the young. What we do with Saudi Arabia in its promotion of Wahhabi doctrine.

My fear is that they will become more sophisticated in designing bombs, as seems to be the case in Manchester. The call to Syria has been replaced with instruction to stay in the west and use any means to strike. We cannot ignore that intelligence from within the British Musim community plays a major factor in our ability to thwart attacks. This has to be recognised and applauded but more importantly supported.

To defeat an idea, a doctrine that you believe is the word of God is impossible. What is possible is reducing the recruitment and this can only be achieved when we remove the recruitment tools by looking to find political solutions to the Middle East. To call out Saudi Arabia and stop wahabi doctrine expansion.

But, even if all that was achieved we will still have people who will reject it unless it includes the world accepting Islam, which won't happen. The reality is increased attacks will be the norm in the west. I can see no other future for us all. Racial hate preachers and their followers need to be tackled, but that will only drive them
underground. Religion and its ability to make reason redundant is the main issue. To deny that is to deny what motivates them. Read the books and tell me there isn't in black and white instructions to act in the way we see today by extremists. It's there. Below is a summary but wider reading is needed to understand what we are up against. It won't make for a pleasant read.

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html

I hardly ever read long posts because I can't be arsed, but I read all of that and found it extremely interesting and enlightening: Thanks for taking the time to post it.

But let me ask you this: Since we in the west rarely, if ever these days, carry out acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity, we've clearly grown out of and away from the literal interpretations in the Bible. It seems pretty logical to me (as a 100% devout atheist) that this should have come to pass because with every advance in technology and our understanding of the earth and indeed the universe, it becomes more compellingly clear that the ancient writings in the Bible are a load of old cobblers. Mumbo jumbo from an ancient time that serves no purpose in a modern scientific era. We've been told porkies for centuries, and been gullible enough to believe it. But now, believing that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, is the view only of loonies few and far between. Thankfully also, loonies not motivated to use violence to further their views.

So how do we over time, persuade people that these literal interpretations of the Quran are similarly flawed? It would seem to me that Isis and others are not much different to how we were 500 years ago, and that enlightenment will occur naturally in time. The question is, how do we accelerate the process?

 

[blueinsa]

I'm not sure what your problem with his attitude is tbh. He's one of the no nonsense fuckers that we've been happy to have defending us over the years. That's why he was what he was I guess.

Not bringing his service record into doubt at all but his politics and answer to the issue we have right now was plain fucking stupid!

 

[CTID1988]

I couldn't believe what I was watching, unbelievable he was even on the tv

Could you give a rundown of what he said with the caveat that the guys a bellend for saying it, im at work so cant get to a tv.
Ive noticed a lot of shit from SkyNews regarding all this, including slagging off the showsec staff for fuck all. They're the gutter press