City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I know that bit mate.im on about these "pik notes".....our owner buys the "pik notes"....the rags then "owe" our owner,is that right?
Would that be legally allowed with him owning city?

I realised that, I was just being my usual flippant self and making a joke about something when I don't properly know the answer ;-)

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Were the PIK notes held by United or the Glazers themselves? I seem to recall it was the latter but possibly through their ultimate holding company Red Football. They refinanced them 5 years ago but didn't explain how, whereas if United had done that, they would have been some indication to show how. The original notes were secured against the Glazers' United shares and the likelihood is that whatever vehicle they used to pay them off is also secured against those shares. The whole thing appears to be a pack of cards which, Maxwell-like, is propped up by cash, shares and loans being shifted between all the companies.

Their main business is First Allied Corporation, which builds and rents out shopping malls. That's almost certainly very heavily mortgaged and they took out new finance just before the crash. They were very definitely struggling at about the time those PIK notes were refinanced, with some of the malls having gone into liquidation and others in the equivalent negative equity, with the rents barely covering the mortgage or even falling short. They negotiated loan that had an interest-only only option, which expired in 2010 so the payments shot up dramatically. It's quite possible that they renegotiated those loans at that time and, in doing so, raised extra cash to pay off the PIK notes.

The outlook for the sort of malls that FAC own isn't great. They don't have prestigious anchor stores that bring in big-spending customers. They're more the equivalent of somewhere like Stretford Arndale. Each one will have a mortgage and it's quite possible that, somewhere along the line, their United shares will be the security for some or all of that finance. So if ADUG or a related party were to buy those mortgages and foreclose, they could get hold of a significant number of the shares.

 

[stony]

Were the PIK notes held by United or the Glazers themselves? I seem to recall it was the latter but possibly through their ultimate holding company Red Football. They refinanced them 5 years ago but didn't explain how, whereas if United had done that, they would have been some indication to show how. The original notes were secured against the Glazers' United shares and the likelihood is that whatever vehicle they used to pay them off is also secured against those shares. The whole thing appears to be a pack of cards which, Maxwell-like, is propped up by cash, shares and loans being shifted between all the companies.

Their main business is First Allied Corporation, which builds and rents out shopping malls. That's almost certainly very heavily mortgaged and they took out new finance just before the crash. They were very definitely struggling at about the time those PIK notes were refinanced, with some of the malls having gone into liquidation and others in the equivalent negative equity, with the rents barely covering the mortgage or even falling short. They negotiated loan that had an interest-only only option, which expired in 2010 so the payments shot up dramatically. It's quite possible that they renegotiated those loans at that time and, in doing so, raised extra cash to pay off the PIK notes.

The outlook for the sort of malls that FAC own isn't great. They don't have prestigious anchor stores that bring in big-spending customers. They're more the equivalent of somewhere like Stretford Arndale. Each one will have a mortgage and it's quite possible that, somewhere along the line, their United shares will be the security for some or all of that finance. So if ADUG or a related party were to buy those mortgages and foreclose, they could get hold of a significant number of the shares.

You have to ask why they stuck their noses in and tried to scupper us in the first place if they were so worried about the potential outcome for them. Utterly fucking stupid of them to anger Mansour like that.
I hope their part in this has not been forgiven.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

You have to ask why they stuck their noses in and tried to scupper us in the first place if they were so worried about the potential outcome for them. Utterly fucking stupid of them to anger Mansour like that.
I hope their part in this has not been forgiven.

well, perhaps, but I'm sure Sheikh Mansour is much happier having a Glazer-owned Rags than someone who is as driven for success like he is.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Well I have it on good authority from a friend who works in the City on short term high risk finance that as a result of Utd's role in setting up FFP Utd converted the PIK notes to a new loan because there was real concern that our owner would buy the PIK notes (or achieve leverage over the institutions owning the PIK notes) and demand instant repayment.
Don't take a knife to a gun fight is my comment on that one.

Real we'll buy your club and burn it down stuff;)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

You have to ask why they stuck their noses in and tried to scupper us in the first place if they were so worried about the potential outcome for them. Utterly fucking stupid of them to anger Mansour like that.
I hope their part in this has not been forgiven.

Strategically it would have been a tough call for united following the takeover, but there's no doubt they've called it wrong.

Their big mistake was failing to improve themselves as a club and instead wasting too much emotional energy trying to hold us back. They all too readliy believed their own publicity, thinking that their status was impenetrable.

We are now in a once unimaginable position where united players are queuing up to send their kids to our academy. If that doesn't serve to damn their misconceived priorities in the last seven years, I'm not sure what would.

 

[stony]

Strategically it would have been a tough call for united following the takeover, but there's no doubt they've called it wrong.

Their big mistake was failing to improve themselves as a club and instead wasting too much emotional energy trying to hold us back. They all too readliy believed their own publicity, thinking that their status was impenetrable.

We are now in a once unimaginable position where united players are queuing up to send their kids to our academy. If that doesn't serve to damn their misconceived priorities in the last seven years, I'm not sure what would.

I'd love to read a book about all the shenanigans between the clubs and how they tried to stop us. I don't suppose we will ever know the full truth.

 

[Man city fan 72]

If Platini loses his job because of his total incompetence, will that mean that FFP is totally dead?.

 

[aguero93:20]

If Platini loses his job because of his total incompetence, will that mean that FFP is totally dead?.

Probably not it's been in Gill's hands for the past few years and Platini has always tried to make out that it was the ECA that introduced it.

 

[VOOMER]

well, perhaps, but I'm sure Sheikh Mansour is much happier having a Glazer-owned Rags than someone who is as driven for success like he is.

Or they are a running joke to our highness and his entourage as their tips could buy rag dom?