80s Shorts
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CITY: SHOWSEC, Atmosphere, & Blatant Bullying.
- Thread starter Mancityfans.net'er
- Start date
80s Shorts
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2009
- Messages
- 12,616
Were there similar calls for them to be removed from Maine Rd.
80s Shorts
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2009
- Messages
- 12,616
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Well he should of sat down then. I picked up my 9 year old nephew when we scored a goal and was told by a City steward that I could not do that. Health and safety gone mad maybe but he was just doing his job. Had I picked him up again when we scored the other two then I he would have been within his rights to ask me to leave. This was not a Showsec but a City steward.
Its a very grey area and the sooner safe standing is brought in the better.
1. The government’s policy in respect of all seated grounds is enforced by way of conditions set out in the licence issued to clubs by the Sports Grounds Safety Authority (SGSA). Where grounds are required to be all seated the SGSA is instructed by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to include conditions restricting the admission of spectators to seated accommodation. The ground regulations adopted by all Premier and Football League clubs include as a condition of entry to the ground that spectators may not stand in seated areas while play is in progress.
Have you identified the underlying reasons why spectators stand persistently? • Inadequate sightlines? • An obstructed view? • Uncomfortable seating? • Other standing spectators obstructing their view? • That is their preference? • To demonstrate their opposition to any club policy? • As part of an organised campaign for the return of standing terraces?
Have you considered the following hazards (including who might be harmed and how)? • The gradient of the seating deck? • In an upper or elevated tier, the height of the front barrier or parapet in front of seated rows and gangways? • Spectators failing to occupy the seats allocated to them and / or migrating into seated areas not allocated to them, either from choice or to avoid uncovered or partially covered seating? • The spectator density exceeding the number of seats in any area? • Spectators obstructing gangways, vomitories and other circulation routes? • Standing spectators acting in an uncontrolled manner, in particular in gangways? • Standing spectators behaving aggressively or unpleasantly, thereby causing offence to others around them?
Have you evaluated the following risks? • Spectators falling onto or between seats? • Spectators falling down gangways? • Spectators falling from elevated seating decks? • Spectators having other spectators fall against or on top of them? • The loss of enjoyment for spectators who have to stand involuntarily?
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• The fear of threat or intimidation faced by spectators who don’t wish to stand? • The inability of children and people of small stature to see the game? • The inability of persons with disabilities to see the game? • The difficulty in monitoring the safety of standing spectators? • The difficulty in identifying troublemakers in the event of any crowd trouble? • Crowd hostility towards the stewards and / or the police over the enforcement of ground regulations? • The greater difficulty of enforcing the football offences legislation, particularly against racist or obscene behaviour and the throwing of missiles?
Have you considered the following in your assessment of the risks (including whether existing precautions are adequate or whether more could be done)? • Injuries from slips / or falls due to uncontrolled movement on seating decks? • Injuries from falls down gangways? • Spectators suffering harm because first aiders or stewards cannot get to them or because they are unable to leave when they wish? • Spectators staying away because of poor customer care or bad behaviour? • A prosecution by the local authority’s trading standards department or a civil action by spectators under consumer protection legislation? • Legal action under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995? • Antisocial behaviour by standing spectators? • Disorder by standing spectators?
Have you included the following measurement indicators in recording your risk assessment? • General crowd behavioural patterns? • Records of crowd-related incidents? • Records of spectator injuries? • Records of spectator complaints?
When did you last review, and if necessary revise your risk assessment?
Clubs would be on a very sticky wicket should somebody die due to an accident because of persistent standing in a seated area. It's obvious that it is not as safe to stand in these areas as it would be in a purpose built safe standing zone. That should be the aim and then most would be happy.
Considering the legislation it seems strange that any club can give a nod and a wink to a small area to be able to stand and still get a safety certificate. This then leads to the problem we have at the moment. ie if they can stand then why cant I ? If that then gets out of hand and the standing spreads then the clubs are in danger of being sanctioned and so tell their stewards or security to clamp down on it. They then have to try to make an example of some people to try to curb the spread of the standing into other areas. Who are they going to make an example of ? The easiest to remove without a fracas. Seems to me they are between a rock and a hard place. Although, as I said earlier there are certain people to whom you give a high viz vest and they become power pissed. I picture Prestwich Blue wearing one in the mod room ;-)
She was escorted out because her husband, who looked to be in his sixties, was taken out and she went with him. There were quite a few others who were apparently members of the same family who also went out with him. I know someone who sits there and he said the whole area was standing up but they picked on this guy because he pointed out others around him were standing up and weren't being told to sit down. A load of police and ShowSec then appeared at the top of the block and went down to take him out. Happy now?
Well he should of sat down then. I picked up my 9 year old nephew when we scored a goal and was told by a City steward that I could not do that. Health and safety gone mad maybe but he was just doing his job. Had I picked him up again when we scored the other two then I he would have been within his rights to ask me to leave. This was not a Showsec but a City steward.
Its a very grey area and the sooner safe standing is brought in the better.
1. The government’s policy in respect of all seated grounds is enforced by way of conditions set out in the licence issued to clubs by the Sports Grounds Safety Authority (SGSA). Where grounds are required to be all seated the SGSA is instructed by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to include conditions restricting the admission of spectators to seated accommodation. The ground regulations adopted by all Premier and Football League clubs include as a condition of entry to the ground that spectators may not stand in seated areas while play is in progress.
Have you identified the underlying reasons why spectators stand persistently? • Inadequate sightlines? • An obstructed view? • Uncomfortable seating? • Other standing spectators obstructing their view? • That is their preference? • To demonstrate their opposition to any club policy? • As part of an organised campaign for the return of standing terraces?
Have you considered the following hazards (including who might be harmed and how)? • The gradient of the seating deck? • In an upper or elevated tier, the height of the front barrier or parapet in front of seated rows and gangways? • Spectators failing to occupy the seats allocated to them and / or migrating into seated areas not allocated to them, either from choice or to avoid uncovered or partially covered seating? • The spectator density exceeding the number of seats in any area? • Spectators obstructing gangways, vomitories and other circulation routes? • Standing spectators acting in an uncontrolled manner, in particular in gangways? • Standing spectators behaving aggressively or unpleasantly, thereby causing offence to others around them?
Have you evaluated the following risks? • Spectators falling onto or between seats? • Spectators falling down gangways? • Spectators falling from elevated seating decks? • Spectators having other spectators fall against or on top of them? • The loss of enjoyment for spectators who have to stand involuntarily?
24
• The fear of threat or intimidation faced by spectators who don’t wish to stand? • The inability of children and people of small stature to see the game? • The inability of persons with disabilities to see the game? • The difficulty in monitoring the safety of standing spectators? • The difficulty in identifying troublemakers in the event of any crowd trouble? • Crowd hostility towards the stewards and / or the police over the enforcement of ground regulations? • The greater difficulty of enforcing the football offences legislation, particularly against racist or obscene behaviour and the throwing of missiles?
Have you considered the following in your assessment of the risks (including whether existing precautions are adequate or whether more could be done)? • Injuries from slips / or falls due to uncontrolled movement on seating decks? • Injuries from falls down gangways? • Spectators suffering harm because first aiders or stewards cannot get to them or because they are unable to leave when they wish? • Spectators staying away because of poor customer care or bad behaviour? • A prosecution by the local authority’s trading standards department or a civil action by spectators under consumer protection legislation? • Legal action under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995? • Antisocial behaviour by standing spectators? • Disorder by standing spectators?
Have you included the following measurement indicators in recording your risk assessment? • General crowd behavioural patterns? • Records of crowd-related incidents? • Records of spectator injuries? • Records of spectator complaints?
When did you last review, and if necessary revise your risk assessment?
Clubs would be on a very sticky wicket should somebody die due to an accident because of persistent standing in a seated area. It's obvious that it is not as safe to stand in these areas as it would be in a purpose built safe standing zone. That should be the aim and then most would be happy.
Considering the legislation it seems strange that any club can give a nod and a wink to a small area to be able to stand and still get a safety certificate. This then leads to the problem we have at the moment. ie if they can stand then why cant I ? If that then gets out of hand and the standing spreads then the clubs are in danger of being sanctioned and so tell their stewards or security to clamp down on it. They then have to try to make an example of some people to try to curb the spread of the standing into other areas. Who are they going to make an example of ? The easiest to remove without a fracas. Seems to me they are between a rock and a hard place. Although, as I said earlier there are certain people to whom you give a high viz vest and they become power pissed. I picture Prestwich Blue wearing one in the mod room ;-)
Last edited:
Ladybarn Blue .
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 23 Sep 2012
- Messages
- 954
Hi ,If this is happening as regularly and as ostensibly as you imply, where are all these bullied and banned individuals. Do they simply vanish into the night ?
please introduce yourselve to me when you see me at the next home match or PM me .
Kind Regards ,
"The old man" .
Eric Wirral
Well-Known Member
Oh Dear.
I think he's right.
Next home game up in 314 I will be conducting my own on site risk assessment and providing the club with the required Method Statement outlining how I can stand up and sing safely. Obviously the risk alters if and when a goal is scored but I reckon I can still do this in a safe manner without killing myself or anyone around me.
I think he's right.
Next home game up in 314 I will be conducting my own on site risk assessment and providing the club with the required Method Statement outlining how I can stand up and sing safely. Obviously the risk alters if and when a goal is scored but I reckon I can still do this in a safe manner without killing myself or anyone around me.
Great idea. I'm also in 314 for Swansea, and if your about I will join you beforehand in singing a few octaves to warm our voices up, so avoiding a nasty throat strain. :)Oh Dear.
I think he's right.
Next home game up in 314 I will be conducting my own on site risk assessment and providing the club with the required Method Statement outlining how I can stand up and sing safely. Obviously the risk alters if and when a goal is scored but I reckon I can still do this in a safe manner without killing myself or anyone around me.
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
Once again, this has all been discussed in the thread but you haven't bothered to read it.Considering the legislation it seems strange that any club can give a nod and a wink to a small area to be able to stand and still get a safety certificate. This then leads to the problem we have at the moment. ie if they can stand then why cant I ? If that then gets out of hand and the standing spreads then the clubs are in danger of being sanctioned and so tell their stewards or security to clamp down on it. They then have to try to make an example of some people to try to curb the spread of the standing into other areas. Who are they going to make an example of ? The easiest to remove without a fracas. Seems to me they are between a rock and a hard place.
Strictly speaking the club is breaking the terms of its licence by allowing people to stand. But people do stand, both home and away fans, and in the early days there was a lot of hassle in the South Stand over this. Home fans who wanted to stand were annoyed that they were being targeted while away fans weren't. And there was hassle between those who wanted to stand and those who didn't. To cut a long story short, the club reached a consensus that it would turn a blind eye to standing in certain areas as long as that the people standing in that block didn't obstruct the view of other blocks where people wanted to sit. This was discussed at Points of Blue meetings and the point was made that it put our licence at risk but it was the same for every club and the Football Licencing Authority (as it was then) may not like it but it was a fact of life and as long as the aisles were kept clear they wouldn't insist on action. There are all sorts of areas in our lives where things we do are, strictly speaking, illegal or breach local by-laws but the authorities recognise that strict enforcement isn't worth the hassle or expense involved except for extreme examples.
People got the message and anyone who didn't want to stand in the affected blocks moved out and those who did moved in. This also applied in 110/111 but not in 109. I sat on the back row and my standing couldn't possibly block anyone's view but I was told that I had to remain in my seat and not stand. Then people moved into lower parts of 109 who were attracted by the better atmosphere in that area, wanted to stand and the battles started again. Eventually, after the incident involving Ladybarn Blue and others, the club agreed that it would turn a blind eye to standing in 109 on the basis that it didn't impede the view from other areas but that would be the end of it and that standing would not be allowed in 107 or the blocks after that. So 109 has been standing for the last few seasons, with no hassle and anyone who didn't want to stand has moved out. Yet for no apparent reason, the hassle has started again. Possibly it's because the club is selling match tickets and not making it clear that the area is classed as a standing one. We've had people in front of us with young kids at some games, with the kid having to stand on the seat. So possibly people have complained. It would help if the club talked to its fans but they won't.
The ultimate answer is safe standing of course and hopefully that's not too far away.
Last edited:
Eric Wirral
Well-Known Member
Have you identified the underlying reasons why spectators stand persistently? • Inadequate sightlines? • An obstructed view? • Uncomfortable seating? • Other standing spectators obstructing their view? •That is their preference? • To demonstrate their opposition to any club policy? • As part of an organised campaign for the return of standing terraces?
Errrrr
Maybe none of the above and just to sing and create an atmosphere to spur on the team?
It is quite an old thing but it does work, believe me
Errrrr
Maybe none of the above and just to sing and create an atmosphere to spur on the team?
It is quite an old thing but it does work, believe me
80s Shorts
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2009
- Messages
- 12,616
Once again, this has all been discussed in the thread but you haven't bothered to read it.
Strictly speaking the club is breaking the terms of its licence by allowing people to stand. But people do stand, both home and away fans, and in the early days there was a lot of hassle in the South Stand over this. Home fans who wanted to stand were annoyed that they were being targeted while away fans weren't. And there was hassle between those who wanted to stand and those who didn't. To cut a long story short, the club reached a consensus that it would turn a blind eye to standing in certain areas as long as that the people standing in that block didn't obstruct the view of other blocks where people wanted to sit. This was discussed at Points of Blue meetings and the point was made that it put our licence at risk but it was the same for every club and the Football Licencing Authority (as it was then) may not like it but it was a fact of life and as long as the aisles were kept clear they wouldn't insist on action. There are all sorts of areas in our lives where things we do are, strictly speaking, illegal or breach local by-laws but the authorities recognise that strict enforcement isn't worth the hassle or expense involved except for extreme examples.
People got the message and anyone who didn't want to stand in the affected blocks moved out and those who did moved in. This also applied in 110/111 but not in 109. I sat on the back row and my standing couldn't possibly block anyone's view but I was told that I had to remain in my seat and not stand. Then people moved into lower parts of 109 who were attracted by the better atmosphere in that area, wanted to stand and the battles started again. Eventually, after the incident involving Ladybarn Blue and others, the club agreed that it would turn a blind eye to standing in 109 on the basis that it didn't impede the view from other areas but that would be the end of it and that standing would not be allowed in 107 or the blocks after that. So 109 has been standing for the last few seasons, with no hassle and anyone who didn't want to stand has moved out. Yet for no apparent reason, the hassle has started again. Possibly it's because the club is selling match tickets and not making it clear that the area is classed as a standing one. We've had people in front of us with young kids at some games, with the kid having to stand on the seat. So possibly people have complained. It would help if the club talked to its fans but they won't.
The ultimate answer is safe standing of course and hopefully that's not too far away.
Lets hope so.