Edward Snowden Revelations: Implications

[BlueDeadHead]

Feck me, doesnt surprise me mate. His post was actually Thursday, so even less time in which to become as (un) informed as he is. This is the danger with these silly one angled documentaries. And to think that Oliver Fucking Stone has made a film about it all too, as if that is a credible source of information.

Yeah met Stone last year. One word...Cocaine.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

Yeah met Stone last year. One word...Cocaine.

Not even an excess of that stuff would explain the travesty of history and 3 hour fantasy that was JFK, a great work of fiction. But people take that as gospel too. The man is a clever film maker I guess, but it is somehow always overlooked that he makes fecking films, as opposed to documenting actual history.
Anyway, I digress.

 

[CitizenTID]

Hey Dickhead, I guess I am the Plank you speak of. I will make it simple.

Snowden stands up for civil liberties. He is seen as a great proponent of that cause.

Then...

He hides in a country that has one of the worst Civil Liberties records in the world.

Thus...

He undermines his own efforts.

I know you don't believe that Russia is a tyrranical dictatorship but that is just because you are a fucking moron. Everyone else knows exactly what Russia is.

He might be authoritarian but tyrannical dictator is a bit strong and your last statement is a bit more than hyperbolic. As mentioned already, he had absolutely no intention of staying in, or even going to Russia originally but once he got there he found his passport had been cancelled by the US meaning he could only leave the transit zone of the airport and enter Russia through their acceptance of him in asylum. He is still a US citizen, so not stateless, however the US have only issued him a one-entry travel document to return to the US. I'm not sure on what his options are as to leaving Russia besides that, but I believe if another country grants him asylum, Russia has to agree - so he's pretty much at the mercy of the Russians unless he leaves illegally somehow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

"The CPJ lists Russia as "the third deadliest country in the world for journalists" since 1991, exceeded in the number of deaths only by Algeria (1993–1996) and post-invasion Iraq.[15]"

Now we're getting somewhere from the anti-Russia segment of this thread :)

Although it's an indicator of things and some of the highest numbers are under Putin's era, it doesn't mean Putin/the state had them all killed or any of them, unless we start to investigate each case. So if you brought up one case alongside this, that indicates the state under Putin did kill a journalist and since I'm not aware of the US doing the same and doubt I'll find a case with enough evidence, you may have a +1. Well, at least until I begin digging into the long trail of bodies in Hilary Clinton's wake.

 

[CitizenTID]

I dont think Im the one being blinkered here kid. Whilst looking through the must see documentaries thread for some inspiration as to something to watch tonight, I just found your post from last Wednesday:
Anyone watched that well-known Edward Snowden documentary? Terminal F I think it is? A good watch?
Edit: Just watched it. Quite interesting for an hour's watch, pretty much all complied of interviews and thus various people's points of view including Assange who played a key role in helping him escape American clutches and the slap head director that got caught with his pants down. CitizenFour I think was the one I originally meant, gonna watch that soon as think it's from a different slant and also critically acclaimed.
You have watched a tinfoilers doocumentary about this topic, less than a week ago, and by the sounds of it know nothing else about this topic other than those one, or two, non impartial sources.
Im not the blinkered one.

Firstly, nice to see you retort to attempting to belittle those that you've been unsuccessful in getting to automatically agree with you, despite the fact you have no indication of my age and that I'm completely open to agreeing with you on Russia if you present something resembling an argument instead of trying to shout the loudest (metaphorically speaking).

Secondly, also nice to see you keep up a theme in your posts with wild presumptions. You are completely off the mark - I had read about the case a long while ago and decided to watch CitizenFour because people recommended it (though I couldn't remember which doc it was when I posted in that other thread) it documents the actual events as well as including a host of other stuff from other cases/people's experiences and other context than just dealing with the facts of this case alone. Since you say 'tinfoilers documentary,' I take it you haven't seen Terminal F since pretty much all it is, is interviews with the people that were involved in the case, from the journalists and Assange, to Snowden and Michael Hayden.

The fact i watched the two docs recently is no point at all to any argument, especially since one was released last year and the other the year before with the initial events happening in 2013. All sources relating to the Snowden case in both Terminal F and CitizenFour are primary sources, from different sides of the events, documented by people that were there. Whether the sources are impartial or not is completely irrelevant - I'm not even sure why your questioning that, all the sources agree on the events that happened - neither documentary paints Snowden as a hero or traitor, that's left to the viewer to make their own opinion and neither says anything about Russian conduct.

You just seem to be on the defensive about anything US related and attack anything Russia or Snowden related without adding anything. I'd fucking hate to converse with you in the Muffin or Barm thread.

 

[CitizenTID]

Haha! Don't forget, this is the guy that hasn't decided yet whether 9/11 was a false flag operation.

I didn't say that, I basically said I'm not interested in looking into it because it requires too much expertise for which the vast majority and myself don't possess, to have a considered opinion on it. There are more than enough people saying otherwise to not just presume it was as the narrative is. I don't automatically agree with everything and believe everything the BBC or CNN says because I possess my own thinking capacity. Like Wally, you've resorted to trying to demean me because I haven't automatically agreed with your stance on Snowden/Russia. Like I said, my whole interest here is to see other people's opinions and where they may present arguments for or against one thing or the other, it will mould my opinion, particularly if it prompts me to research something I haven't previously. So, one of your "arguments" seem to be that I have admitted to not knowing some things, well it appears you know everything there is to know in that case - yet only once or twice have you even begun to present some information instead of repeating your opinion and attacking posters. I presume Wally called me 'kid' because I am willing to admit to not knowing everything. I expect he'd have no issue with me calling him a kid when he can't even begin to debate an area of my expertise, or when he simply doesn't agree with my opinion on something I imply I know about without providing any evidence I know of any information on the subject.

The actual purpose of the thread was just to share the documentary and to discuss the implications of the revelations if anyone was interested, though I'm interested in finding out more about Russia/Putin if people are actually discussing information, especially since it is part of the wider context of the thread subject.

 

[west didsblue]

I didn't say that, I basically said I'm not interested in looking into it because it requires too much expertise for which the vast majority and myself don't possess, to have a considered opinion on it. There are more than enough people saying otherwise to not just presume it was as the narrative is. I don't automatically agree with everything and believe everything the BBC or CNN says because I possess my own thinking capacity. Like Wally, you've resorted to trying to demean me because I haven't automatically agreed with your stance on Snowden/Russia. Like I said, my whole interest here is to see other people's opinions and where they may present arguments for or against one thing or the other, it will mould my opinion, particularly if it prompts me to research something I haven't previously. So, one of your "arguments" seem to be that I have admitted to not knowing some things, well it appears you know everything there is to know in that case - yet only once or twice have you even begun to present some information instead of repeating your opinion and attacking posters. I presume Wally called me 'kid' because I am willing to admit to not knowing everything. I expect he'd have no issue with me calling him a kid when he can't even begin to debate an area of my expertise, or when he simply doesn't agree with my opinion on something I imply I know about without providing any evidence I know of any information on the subject.

The actual purpose of the thread was just to share the documentary and to discuss the implications of the revelations if anyone was interested, though I'm interested in finding out more about Russia/Putin if people are actually discussing information, especially since it is part of the wider context of the thread subject.

Did you watch Newsnight tonight. An interesting report from Russia with interviews with real Russians. I know you see equivalence between Western media and Russian media both towing the party line, however Russian media really is state controlled with all content sanctioned by or sympathetic to Putin. Western media on the other hand can report what it wants and frequently does. Investigative journalists regularly embarrass their own governments so there's really no comparison. Anything you see on Russian media outlets is what Putin wants you to see.

 

[CitizenTID]

Feck me, doesnt surprise me mate. His post was actually Thursday, so even less time in which to become as (un) informed as he is. This is the danger with these silly one angled documentaries. And to think that Oliver Fucking Stone has made a film about it all too, as if that is a credible source of information.

How pathetic of me to remain so uninformed about Putin and modern Russia after watching documentaries about Edward Snowden and US surveillance.

 

[CitizenTID]

Did you watch Newsnight tonight. An interesting report from Russia with interviews with real Russians. I know you see equivalence between Western media and Russian media both towing the party line, however Russian media really is state controlled with all content sanctioned by or sympathetic to Putin. Western media on the other hand can report what it wants and frequently does. Investigative journalists regularly embarrass their own governments so there's really no comparison. Anything you see on Russian media outlets is what Putin wants you to see.

No mate, unfortunately not. As I said somewhere on here about my impression of Putin first-hand, I have only had it feed through via RT, whose purpose I know is counter-propaganda, being state funded (that does not change what he says in international conferences RT posts videos of). RT is a very clever play by Putin. The things you mention are the things I obviously wouldn't be exposed to having never visited Russia. A poster on here recommended the book Godfather of the Kremlin whose author was assassinated (by Chechen organised crime it appears), which I plan to read and hope to read about all this sort of stuff. I have seen many Russians that love Putin (I'm aware of Putinism), have read that a lot don't like him but still vote for him because he's a strong leader/the best option, but I will try and find some sources expressing the views and things you mention. Obviously one of the harder issues at hearing from Russians and being exposed to their culture and internal politics first-hand (instead of via western reporting and opinion) is the language difference, unlike with Americans.

It may help to draw parallels of my stance on Putin/Russia here, with North Korea. Similarly, with North Korea everything I see of them is via western media and nothing first-hand. However, I have seen investigative journalism (video proof) to back up overwhelming negative opinion from the western narrative on them (things modern western countries obviously have not done).

 

[Ghandi's Flip Flops]

Did you watch Newsnight tonight. An interesting report from Russia with interviews with real Russians. I know you see equivalence between Western media and Russian media both towing the party line, however Russian media really is state controlled with all content sanctioned by or sympathetic to Putin. Western media on the other hand can report what it wants and frequently does. Investigative journalists regularly embarrass their own governments so there's really no comparison. Anything you see on Russian media outlets is what Putin wants you to see.

I didn't see it either but it's always interesting to see how different media present their stories or reports and the bias or 'angle' they use.

During the Iraq war i was working alongside a woman who i believe was originally from Syrian, but had family still in Iraq. She spent what spare time she could getting updates from the Arabic news channels/sites like Al Jazeera etc. Some of the stuff i saw on there was pretty horrific; woman & children missing limbs being treated in hospitals or dead bodies being pulled out of the rubble, all caused by the allied bombings.

When i got home at night i would then see on our news channels , the 'sanitized' version of these events, where these allied attacks were shown like a video game footage, and where it was inferred that these 'precision' attacks didn't produce any collateral damage or civilian casualties what so ever.

 

[stonerblue]

Hey Dickhead, I guess I am the Plank you speak of. I will make it simple.

Snowden stands up for civil liberties. He is seen as a great proponent of that cause.

Then...

He hides in a country that has one of the worst Civil Liberties records in the world.

Thus...

He undermines his own efforts.

I know you don't believe that Russia is a tyrranical dictatorship but that is just because you are a fucking moron. Everyone else knows exactly what Russia is.

No need for personal abuse.