Greece

[hackneyslim]

Are you saying that the Greeks are in noway responsible for this mess? Even you would admit you can't have a good welfare system without collecting Tax, something the Greeks were loath to do, and at least try and run a decent economy without the largess of the Germans, you could say that capitalism will (or looks to) actually save Greece because the profligate socialists and corrupt centre parties that they have elected have all failed them

I'm not getting on your case, please, but I'm afraid this is also inaccurate.
Either there was a good welfare system or there wasn't - and if there was, it existed without a good tax collection service.
As for running a decent economy, without anyone's largess - firstly, this has never happened, and secondly the very reason they joined the EU was to benefit from the association (ie 'German' borrowing rates).
Regarding the parties running Greece since 1974, what centre parties? And you don't think the right were profligate or corrupt either?
Capitalism is not interested in saving anyone.
Running through this thread is a line of badly-informed opinion about the reality on the ground here and the history behind it. The place is broken, at the mercy of their creditors, run and populated by selfish fools and liars, and without a clue what to do, but still exhibiting a lack of self-awareness and responsibility and trying to apportion blame anywhere but themselves, even at the expense of their own future.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Greece should never have been part of the Eurozone and should be helped to exit with as little pain as possible. All of the countries that are in the Eurozone but should never have been, the future Greeces, should be provided with an exit route that doesn't involve national humiliation and despair. (quote)

The decision to expand the EU to 27 countries, mainly using the Euro, was an act of monumental folly. The Greeks were complicit in that decision, but it was a collective folly. Punishing the Greeks isnt the correct response. An orderly exit is essential.[/QUOTE]

Germany knows that Spain and Portugal, Ireland, maybe Italy, will be watching, and could be doing exactly the same as Greece in the future.
It may not be just yet, but I think this federalist inspired nonsense will be put out of it's misery eventually.

 

[aguero93:20]

Germany knows that Spain and Portugal, Ireland, maybe Italy, will be watching, and could be doing exactly the same as Greece in the future.
It may not be just yet, but I think this federalist inspired nonsense will be put out of it's misery eventually.

Our economy is in much better shape than the Greeks, remove the property bubble and subsequent banking crash and it's as strong as anyone's in Europe, I think you're including us in the wrong group there. Especially seeing as we exited our bailout program 6 months ago.

 

[warspite]

Some banks open for pensioners who don't have plastic Today, just seen some on TV go in and expected their full pension to have gone in but were given 60 Euro, they were distraught, it's these people I feel most sorry for, they feel humiliated

 

[inbetween]

Some banks open for pensioners who don't have plastic Today, just seen some on TV go in and expected their full pension to have gone in but were given 60 Euro, they were distraught, it's these people I feel most sorry for, they feel humiliated

I don't feel sorry for them - a lot of these people must of voted for the anti-austerity party that is in power. What Greece needed was someone to make the changes that would save the country fiscally. The Greek people unfortunately chose to go down this route through voting into power a party with the mandate of resisting change and one which would stick two fingers up to the rest of the world who lent them money. Now they will pay for that mistake probably for the rest of their lives unfortunately.

 

[Gio Sugar]

I don't feel sorry for them - a lot of these people must of voted for the anti-austerity party that is in power. What Greece needed was someone to make the changes that would save the country fiscally. The Greek people unfortunately chose to go down this route through voting into power a party with the mandate of resisting change and one which would stick two fingers up to the rest of the world who lent them money. Now they will pay for that mistake probably for the rest of their lives unfortunately.

I was at Syntagma yesterday under heavy rain screaming Hellas - Europe - Democracy. You have absolutely right ........
.... but i still feel very very sorry for the old people.

I could say i am fucking angry because they are helpless and they believed the promises of those nationalist - communist, but for the rest of the people i am a traitor. Bloody hell.

 

[west didsblue]

I don't feel sorry for them - a lot of these people must of voted for the anti-austerity party that is in power. What Greece needed was someone to make the changes that would save the country fiscally. The Greek people unfortunately chose to go down this route through voting into power a party with the mandate of resisting change and one which would stick two fingers up to the rest of the world who lent them money. Now they will pay for that mistake probably for the rest of their lives unfortunately.

My understanding is that it was mostly the younger generation who felt they had little to lose that voted Tsipras in. The older generation generally voted against Tsipras and for continued austerity. However it was the older generation who benefited the most when Greece was living beyond its means with ridiculously early retirement and over generous pensions and even though pensions and benefits have been slashed since then, they still have the most to lose if Greece exits the Euro.
The ones that will suffer the least whichever way it goes are the very rich, who got their money out long ago.

 

[warspite]

I don't feel sorry for them - a lot of these people must of voted for the anti-austerity party that is in power. What Greece needed was someone to make the changes that would save the country fiscally. The Greek people unfortunately chose to go down this route through voting into power a party with the mandate of resisting change and one which would stick two fingers up to the rest of the world who lent them money. Now they will pay for that mistake probably for the rest of their lives unfortunately.

They are old people, let them have some dignity in their remaining years

 

[Gio Sugar]

My understanding is that it was mostly the younger generation who felt they had little to lose that voted Tsipras in. The older generation generally voted against Tsipras and for continued austerity. However it was the older generation who benefited the most when Greece was living beyond its means with ridiculously early retirement and over generous pensions and even though pensions and benefits have been slashed since then, they still have the most to lose if Greece exits the Euro.
The ones that will suffer the least whichever way it goes are the very rich, who got their money out long ago.

Only the political customers have benefited with early retirement and over generous pensions. The majority of the older generation saw a big haircut on pensions . IMF propose to decrease the high pensions and give something to the lowest ones, but you know how it works.

 

[west didsblue]

Only the political customers have benefited with early retirement and over generous pensions. The majority of the older generation saw a big haircut on pensions . IMF propose to decrease the high pensions and give something to the lowest ones, but you know how it works.

When you say "political customers", I assume you mean public sector employees (employees of the state). Is this correct?

I was in Athens a few months ago and our taxi driver told us that the very rich have hundreds of billions in Swiss bank accounts and if the government got its hands on a percentage of that, the problem would be solved. But the people with the money are the people who run the country and they are unlikely to want to give up even a percentage of their wealth. Is that a general view or do you think he was exaggerating?