Islamic Terrorism: is religion/belief no matter how misguided, the main motivator?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Magicpole, 24 May 2017.

  1. Magicpole

    Magicpole

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    The assertion that religion is irrelevant to the current manifestation of Islamic terrorism is false. It is the central tenet of their motivation. It is also the case that this phenomenon has its roots in Wahhabi doctrine, established by a man of that name in the 17th century, who advocated a return to an Islamic form of government and society ordered around the Quran and the Haddiths.

    This form of Islam is currently the structure which Saudi Arabia operates and for the last 30 years they have exported this through funding thousands of Mosques world wide. This is a fundamentalist form of Islam that sees as its ultimate goal, the establishment of a world wide Caliphate.

    People dismiss these people as corrupting the Quran. The problem here is that within the Quran and Haddiths, there are texts that actually command efforts to establish a caliphate and to kill or subjugate non believers and the followers of this doctrine point to these writings from the Prophet as justification, and indeed compulsion to seek these ends.

    Similar to Christianity, the vast majority of Muslims do not enact or pursue the more extreme aspects of the teachings. If anybody thinks such extreme instructions are not contained within the Bible, they haven't read it. They are there, but due to primarily to the Enlightenment, Reformation and separation of Church and State, we have seen an interpretation of the Bible that ignores the barbaric aspects and focuses upon the nice bits. The sanitised bits. Here are only a few commands from the God of the Bible

    Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

    You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

    Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

    Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

    Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

    Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
    Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

    Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

    Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude

    Now, we don't do this, but, if you believed, or were convinced that these are commands from God, you would use them as the justification as Islamic Jihadists do. They point to similar 'divine command' writings and reject those who they see as betraying the true teachings.

    Religion and adherence to its writings in a literal sense are 'the' motivation.

    The last century has seen the ending of the Ottoman Caliphate after WW1,
    The establishment of Isreal, the abortive wars in the Middle East,all of which have contributed to the radical clerics armoury to radicalise and promote violence in the pursuance of a world wide Caliphate. They point to the writings that command Muslims and ignore the condemnation of murder and ill treatment of the children of the book. Us.

    Christianity had a reformation, as science proved that the writings of the bible were wrong in relation to how the world is and our place in the universe. Capernicus, Gallileo who showed the earth wasn't the centre of the universe and who was threatened with torture and indeed spent the last 15 years of his life under house arrest. We went from a literal interpretation of the bible to a more well, it's of its time, it's a guide, but, if it was written through divine guidance, the word of God, then who are we to dismiss it? This is what Fundamental Islamists believe. It is not permissible to deny that every word is truly the word of Allah.

    We now are in the period of increased violence. Sectarian violence within Islam between Shia and Sunni interpretations. We see our involment in a military context in the Middle East as the the main tool used to redicalise.

    They also point to things like Muslim bans in America. Support for an expansionist Isreal as examples of how Muslims are victims. They then point to the book. The book, like the bible contain instructions and indeed commands to violence in the achievement of gods wish for a world wide Caliphate.

    The problem for any attempts to reduce tension are hampered by the simple fact, that if you believe every word of a holy book is divine, men cannot challenge it. This will see an eternal number of people who, although in an extemely small minority of Muslims, are still in the millions if we look at the 1.2 billion people within this faith.

    Religion is the motivator.

    It is the justification they use. They actually believe they will be Martyrs. They believe it because the book tells them. 99% do not accept this and say it is a corruption of the Quran. The problem with this is it is in the Quran as those commands are in the bible. The extreme clerics point to them, point to the geopolitical situation and convince young men and women that God wants them to establish a caliphate through any means.

    I have attached a link that gives a historic evolution of what we call extreme Islam, but what those within it see as the command of God. If we are to defeat it, contain it,we need to understand where it comes from. Who is promoting it. What are we doing to exasperate it. What we can do to support Muslims who are happy to live in a secular society to combat the radicalisation of the young. What we do with Saudi Arabia in its promotion of Wahhabi doctrine.

    My fear is that they will become more sophisticated in designing bombs, as seems to be the case in Manchester. The call to Syria has been replaced with instruction to stay in the west and use any means to strike. We cannot ignore that intelligence from within the British Musim community plays a major factor in our ability to thwart attacks. This has to be recognised and applauded but more importantly supported.

    To defeat an idea, a doctrine that you believe is the word of God is impossible. What is possible is reducing the recruitment and this can only be achieved when we remove the recruitment tools by looking to find political solutions to the Middle East. To call out Saudi Arabia and stop wahabi doctrine expansion.

    But, even if all that was achieved we will still have people who will reject it unless it includes the world accepting Islam, which won't happen. The reality is increased attacks will be the norm in the west. I can see no other future for us all. Radical hate preachers and their followers need to be tackled, but that will only drive them
    underground. Religion and its ability to make reason redundant is the main issue. To deny that is to deny what motivates them. Read the books and tell me there isn't in black and white instructions to act in the way we see today by extremists. It's there.

    I will end with a quote that I think sums up the issue.

    In a world without religion, good men would do good things and bad men would do evil things.

    But for good men to do evil things, that requires religion.

    Below is a summary of information on this topic and gives a background to where things are.

    http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html
     
  2. aguero93:20

    aguero93:20

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    Apologist.
     
  3. vonkeynotvenky

    vonkeynotvenky

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    Good post mate.

    Religion in itself isn't to blame (I abhor religion and it's controlling nature) religion gives an excuse to commit murder and to glorify that murder as righteous and give the murderers moral false justification. Without the readily available sick drones who so easily 'Other' people who don't believe their madness there will always be disciples who have been indoctrinated by an ideology they can't shift.
    We as a society bang the drum about fighting fascism when it comes from the far right but for some reason pussyfoot around other ideologies that threaten our way of life.
     
  4. che_don_john

    che_don_john

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    It is for this reason that I object to the use of the term 'Radical Islam' in the context of terrorism, What we really should be saying is 'Fundamentalism', because, as you pointed out, that's what these acts are - they are adhering to that fundamental, 'fire and brimstone' side that all the Abrahamic religions have.

    In fact, the reason that most Muslims do not identify with AQ, IS and the like is that they adhere to a version or versions of Islam that have, to some extent at least, gone through an enlightenment process (I'm deliberately using the lower-case 'e' as each religion and culture has had its own Enlightenment period and movement). It could be argued, even if just semantically, that the Muslims, Christians and Jews who identify more with liberal values and eschew the violent instructions of their holy books are the radicals, having departed from the fundamental doctrines. That's certainly how they would have been viewed in the past.

    In answer to your general question: I think religion is the main motivator, without question. Two reasons: 1) It contributes to their belief that they will be rewarded in an afterlife, thus making it easier for them to justify and carry out these acts; and 2) It is what helps create that divide between themselves and everyone else - a divide which makes it much easier to cause harm to other fellow human beings.

    Someone said in the bombing thread earlier that Norther Ireland was not about religion. Whilst it is true that the 'narcissism of difference' means that people will always find some way to divide between 'them and us', I think the the role of religion in religious terrorism is so plainly obvious (and not just by definition) that I struggle to understand how anyone can deny it. Would we have the problems in Northern Ireland/Israel-Palestine/Sri Lanka if each of the populations in those countries were entirely Catholic/Muslim/Buddhist? Most probably not.
     
  5. Kinkladze 1

    Kinkladze 1

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    I think people who are religious have, dare I say it, too much time on their hands. It's a bunch of handed down make believe rubbish.
     
  6. Thaksinssoldier

    Thaksinssoldier

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    I think faith outside your own brain should be outlawed.
     
  7. Magicpole

    Magicpole

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    I do apologise :)
     
  8. sir baconface

    sir baconface

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    A mixture of religion, backward societies and intolerant culture, fanned by fanaticism - the latter being based on real and/or perceived historical injustices inflicted by the West. It's a heady mix.
     
  9. CTID1988

    CTID1988

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    The whole religion needs to evolve just like Christianity has. Problem with that though is they believe its the literal word of God, so therefore can not be interpreted in any other way.
     
  10. GeekinGav

    GeekinGav

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    i was under the opinion when 9/11 happened that the extermists were using Religion as an excuse, when it was just a cause of hatred and revenge on countries, governments that intervened, encroached into their lands and were responsible for deaths of their people in wars in the region.

    now, i feel its an evolved form of that with the next generation of extremists who have fell for the religion excuse that these extremists hide behind.
     

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