Islamic Terrorism: is religion/belief no matter how misguided, the main motivator?

So you don't have to convert then, so what I posted was 100% accurate-you even provided us with a real life example where your muslim mate married a Christian who didn't renounce her faith and convert to islam, the family bit wasn't relevant to what we're discussing, I have many friends, both male and female of all colours and creeds who have fallen out with their families over various things, probably including their choice of partners. I'm not sure falling out with family over lovers is exclusive to muslim families! I have a few gay friends who have been disowned by their white families for being gay, are we using that as a reason to call all white folk homophobic?

No. As I said the post you refer to said "I'm not sure". You then went on a rant about him saying you had to convert which is not what he said. So that element wasnt relevant to the original post (to borrow your phrase).

I agree on your point re families falling out for being gay. And that's a sad state of affairs I'm sure you will agree. So if muslims object to mixed marriages (the same if Christian's, Jews, Hindus) then that is also a sad state of affairs in this day and age.

Can I ask how many muslims you know (as you seem to have a wide circle of friends) have married non muslims without any fall out? Serious question and hoping for a positive reply.
 
No. As I said the post you refer to said "I'm not sure". You then went on a rant about him saying you had to convert which is not what he said. So that element wasnt relevant to the original post (to borrow your phrase).

I agree on your point re families falling out for being gay. And that's a sad state of affairs I'm sure you will agree. So if muslims object to mixed marriages (the same if Christian's, Jews, Hindus) then that is also a sad state of affairs in this day and age.

Can I ask how many muslims you know (as you seem to have a wide circle of friends) have married non muslims without any fall out? Serious question and hoping for a positive reply.
A bit of both tbh, I have to concede a few have been disowned for all sorts of things including their choice of partners but that's no different to friends being disowned from say catholic backgrounds for similar things. I must stress my non muslim friends/acquaintances outnumber the muslim ones and they regularly fall out and become estranged from their family members as much as the muslim ones do, sometimes for the very same reasons. I'd say I know of more issues where my black friends have started seeing white girls over the years (I won't say marry because a lot of my friends aren't married) It's not something exclusive to muslims.
 
I found this news today

"The results of a US military investigation have found that many of the more than 100 Iraqi civilians killed in west Mosul in a US airstrike in March died because the building in which they were held had explosives inside that detonated after a US bomb hit the building"

Link: http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/25/politics/mosul-civilian-casualties/index.html

So, do you believe now that this rockets does not only kill terrorists? more than 100 Iraqi civilians died, no one cares about them, and they are not the only victims. i hate war. allot of people die for stupid reasons and some time for no reasons.
Not pretending I have the answers to situations where the enemy is hiding behind civilians (they are, they have not the first sense of honour and continuously reinforce that) but I don't think you can apply our civilian mentality of completely avoiding the accidental deaths of civilians in a war zone. It's sickening, but many morals have to go out of a window in a war zone like that or else you're never going to bring about an end to it because they keep hiding behind civilians. Those civilians could well be the terrorist's own families who completely share the mindset of the enemy and do their own part to facilitate the enemy's activities in their own war effort. It sounds horrible to say but you can't presume they are totally innocent. Both the allies and the axis had honour in how they conducted themselves where this lot haven't a scrap (concentration/POW camps arising from deep bitterness aside) and yet both took the view that they couldn't do anything about civilians that stayed within target area zones - if they decided not to bomb because of it, they'd be a severely ineffective war participant. Unfortunately in practically every war, collateral damage is something you have to accept is part and parcel.

I'm sure military vets on here know the reality of war but this is the heavy impression I get.
 
More of a motivator than religion.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/20-refugees-drown-due-overloaded-vessel-170524113536023.html

Those that don't drown spend their time cramped on their tiny boat, packed like sardines. They also share those boats with fuel for the engines. You know what happens when fuel and salt water combine? There is a chemical reaction that makes your clothes stick to your skin and when removed your skin peels off like a banana. Imagine the stinging feeling when you bite skin around your nail. Now imagine that in large clumps all over your body.
Not only that an estimated 5,000 people drowned in the Med Sea last year and those Libyans fleeing now they face 8-12m waves.

MSF have now 2 ships in the region trying to save as many lives as possible. The Aquarius and Prudance. How many ships do you think the Yabks and Brits have there helping the people our governments put in danger.

That's right, fuck all. Cos we don't give a shit about the people and all we care for is the money.
 
Not pretending I have the answers to situations where the enemy is hiding behind civilians (they are, they have not the first sense of honour and continuously reinforce that) but I don't think you can apply our civilian mentality of completely avoiding the accidental deaths of civilians in a war zone. It's sickening, but many morals have to go out of a window in a war zone like that or else you're never going to bring about an end to it because they keep hiding behind civilians. Those civilians could well be the terrorist's own families who completely share the mindset of the enemy and do their own part to facilitate the enemy's activities in their own war effort. It sounds horrible to say but you can't presume they are totally innocent. Both the allies and the axis had honour in how they conducted themselves where this lot haven't a scrap (concentration/POW camps arising from deep bitterness aside) and yet both took the view that they couldn't do anything about civilians that stayed within target area zones - if they decided not to bomb because of it, they'd be a severely ineffective war participant. Unfortunately in practically every war, collateral damage is something you have to accept is part and parcel.

I'm sure military vets on here know the reality of war but this is the heavy impression I get.

WAW how it is so easy to transform some one from someone who sympathy and want to save humanity to a terrorist! Do you know that terrorists used the same argument? Osama used the same argument, every terrorist used the same, they say these are not civilians because they have elected these government that bomb our cities, so they deserve to die!!!!

No, no justifications whatsoever for killing innocent families, children, older people or even youth just because they are living in the same building, no justification at all. Human are equal and they should have the same rights to live in peace and to have equal opportunities to work to achieve their dreams.

Not even the families of terrorist should be treated as terrorist, most of these families do not know any thing about their son activities, he leave home as a normal person, and suddenly after few years of live in the west, their son is transformed to be terrorist!!!!
 
Religion can bring out the best in people as well as bad, it seems to depend on the person's true character. It can also help people turn from bad and get through things. But one thing I have noticed of the abrahamic religions especially (as oppose to Buddhism for example), the zealousness can twist people into utterly irrational people and it can be hard to bring them back to reality and level-headedness.
This idea that the Eastern religions are all peaceful just isn't true. Tell the Tamil people or the Muslims in Burma how peaceful Buddhists are and they'll laugh at you. Tell the Muslims beaten to death in India for eating beef how peaceful Hindus are. Humans are always going to try and impose their own morality on society. That's why it's important that that morality is based in facts that apply equally to everyone, rather than the hunch of a particular group that has no real evidence.

Religion is actually one of the reasons for human's success, along with nationalism. The ability to organize over large areas is thought to be one of the reasons we out-competed the likes of neanderthals. But along with the ability to bring large groups of people together, it inevitably has the ability to mobilise large groups of people against each other too. In this day and age, we have far better ways of bringing people together, and few worse ways of driving them apart.
 
Which is why we look beyond the prescribed and observe from practice because every type of text known to man can be misinterpreted not because of the text but because of the interpreter and their inferential capacity to understand. That's why interpreting the book is left to the muftis and ulamas assigned to such roles, not self-declared.

I think it's appropriate to use one example. Muhammad's closest friend was Bilal ibn Rabah. Bilal was a polytheist and a slave to his polytheist master a high leader and keeper of idols Umayah. Muhammad befriended Bilal and he was soon exalted as the first ever muezzin in Islam history; a polytheist. Having heard Bilal leaving polytheity, Umayah the master tortured Bilal which included a series of tying and dragging him around town, whipped and beaten and burnt with hot boulders on his chest. Muhammad upon hearing this instead of physical retaliation, he instructed his aide to buy Bilal off Umayah and make him a free him. Soon as he was free, he could no longer be tortured by polytheity and was exalted as the first man to call the prayers in the history of Islam. From a slave to a dignified member of the community. This to me is one testament of friendship.

There are many others, of how the Christian king helped Muhammad in times of need, and how Muhammad being leader of the state provided alms for Christians who could not afford. He visited Abu Talib (a pagan and uncle to Muhammad) during his sickness and his death. Muhammad visited a boy from a Jewish tribe during his sickness in a time when that tribe colluded with the pagans to put poison in his food. Again, it was only that tribe. Other Jewish tribes were not recorded as having any displeasure of the state. So to paint that religion with a single brush is wrong. They did not collude because they are of Jewish faith, they colluded because they had resentment driven by materialistic and political intent. As it was, people of all faith lived in harmony. Even the polytheists were given some grace period to warm into monotheity and abandon their unlawful ways.






I do enjoy reading all these enquiries of what Islam really is. There has been a lot of misinterpretation written by the internet. Put 'islam' in the URL address and it instantly bears authority of the knowledge and the book. Trustworthiness is not only a problem faced by Islam but the internet in general which is why there has been thousands of academic articles on internet trustworthiness. This is just one study on internet trustworthiness:

People increasingly rely on Internet and web-based information despite evidence that it is potentially inaccurate and biased. Therefore, this study sought to assess people's perceptions of the credibility of various categories of Internet information compared to similar information provided by other media. The 1,041 respondents also were asked about whether they verified Internet information. Overall, respondents reported they considered Internet information to be as credible as that obtained from television, radio, and magazines, but not as credible as newspaper information. Credibility among the types of information sought, such as news and entertainment, varied across media channels. Respondents said they rarely verified web-based information, although this too varied by the type of information sought. Levels of experience and how respondents perceived the credibility of information were related to whether they verified information. This study explores the social relevance of the findings and discusses them in terms of theoretical knowledge of advanced communication technologies.
Flanagin, A. J., & Metzger, M. J. (2000). Perceptions of Internet information credibility. Journalism & Mass Communication Quarterly, 77(3), 515-540.

If we really want to know the truth of information, we should not be blasé of where our sources come from. For Islam, it is the hardcopy book itself approved and stamped by a regulating authority of muftis and ulamas, and together with a person verbose not only in the Arabic language that it is written in but who has attained years long training in the art of 'tafsir'. There is nothing wrong in challenging and questioning beliefs, it is certainly even encouraged when the understanding is not nuanced.

thanks for taking the time to respond in detail
 
WAW how it is so easy to transform some one from someone who sympathy and want to save humanity to a terrorist! Do you know that terrorists used the same argument? Osama used the same argument, every terrorist used the same, they say these are not civilians because they have elected these government that bomb our cities, so they deserve to die!!!!

No, no justifications whatsoever for killing innocent families, children, older people or even youth just because they are living in the same building, no justification at all. Human are equal and they should have the same rights to live in peace and to have equal opportunities to work to achieve their dreams.

Not even the families of terrorist should be treated as terrorist, most of these families do not know any thing about their son activities, he leave home as a normal person, and suddenly after few years of live in the west, their son is transformed to be terrorist!!!!
I was talking about within the battlefield. If you can't attack the enemy you've effectively lost/have to put up with them. That's the reality it's not an opinion.
 
More of a motivator than religion.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/20-refugees-drown-due-overloaded-vessel-170524113536023.html

Those that don't drown spend their time cramped on their tiny boat, packed like sardines. They also share those boats with fuel for the engines. You know what happens when fuel and salt water combine? There is a chemical reaction that makes your clothes stick to your skin and when removed your skin peels off like a banana. Imagine the stinging feeling when you bite skin around your nail. Now imagine that in large clumps all over your body.
Not only that an estimated 5,000 people drowned in the Med Sea last year and those Libyans fleeing now they face 8-12m waves.

MSF have now 2 ships in the region trying to save as many lives as possible. The Aquarius and Prudance. How many ships do you think the Yabks and Brits have there helping the people our governments put in danger.

That's right, fuck all. Cos we don't give a shit about the people and all we care for is the money.

It's an awful situation, that is beyond doubt, but just blaming 'us' (as in the Western world) is off the mark imo.

Question.... who are these people fleeing from in the first instance? Answer.... terrorists killing them in their own countries who are driven by religious ideology.

Another question... if the reason you give is the biggest motivator for the terrorists then why, since the year 2000 have their been Islamist terrorist attacks in the following (non-Western) countries...

Malaysia
Yemen
Indonesia
India
Bangladesh
Phllipines
Pakistan
Iraq
Afghanistan
Tunisia
Kuwait
Russia
Saudi Arabia
Kenya
Morocco
Turkey
Egypt
Lebanon
Jordan
Somalia
Uganda
China
Nigeria
Syria
Niger
Australia
UAE
Cameroon
Chad
Mali
Burkina Faso
Ivory Coast

?

Many, many thousands more people have been killed in these countries than in attacks in the West. This implies that religion is more of a motivator than anything else for these fuckers.
 

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