New Brexit thread (with added poll)

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Ric, 3 Sep 2017.

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If the Brexit referendum was held now, how would you vote?

  1. Remain

    486 vote(s)
    59.9%
  2. Leave

    305 vote(s)
    37.6%
  3. Undecided

    20 vote(s)
    2.5%
  1. Psychedelic Casual

    Psychedelic Casual

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    You do know exactly why, and never underestimate this reason neither - it is all down to MONEY! War and weapons is one of the major economies of the world that the people at the top make billions from.
     
  2. mcfc1632

    mcfc1632

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    Dave - sorry it has taken a few days - I was on an all day lads day out at Wembley on Saturday and obviously though that I am still in my thirties..............

    Re the years of anti-EU coverage by some areas of the media I get where you are coming from but for me, whilst that may have shaped the opinion of a small percentage of people to be 'against' the EU I doubt it was much more than that. I accept that you were not talking about the campaigns but at the end of the day it all cam down to the voting on 23/06/16 and I cannot really think that it is credible that people who's opinions had been impacted by the Express etc. were anything other than a tiny fraction of those that were influenced by the massive orchestration undertaken by the government to persuade everyone that the country would go bankrupt and everyone would personally worse off if there was a Leave vote

    Just think it through - the vote was going to be largely driven by the choice of 'swing' voters. Express readers - at the risk of pigeon-holing - were always likely to vote Leave - just as would UKIP voters and some other small demographics - so I think the real impact there was negligible.
    Of course there was also groups that were always going to vote Remain as well.

    But surely it is self-evident that it was those that were unsure and open to being influenced that made the big impact and forgetting some of the desperation put about with regard use of FB data etc. there was massive orchestration by the government and vested interests bodies to scare the bejabbers out of people. If you research the subject of effecting change you will quickly find that convincing people to move from the status quo/familiar is very hard - especially with something that has such major personal consequences.

    I cannot see how anyone can rationally hold the view (obviously not meaning you here - just generally) that the undecided were not more persuaded to vote Remain for safety and familiarity and that we were indeed treated with contempt in the way that herding was undertaken.

    Depending on how you view/define 'dark forces' - there was an element at work here. I am not seeing that definition to be some form of 'Masons', Cosa Nostra or secret society - there were vested interest groups acting to 'steer' the public.

    I will say more in another post on the role of the EU as it has planned for and managed the development of a federal Europe and how it drives its business through a culture and process of lobbying. If a definition of a 'dark force' is an organisation that works insidiously over many decades with leadership passing to 'cult' members to achieve pre-determined control over nations and all the instruments of power - then there could not be a more obvious example than the EU.
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2018
  3. dave_blue12

    dave_blue12

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    Appreciate your response. I'm sure you had a great day out !

    We are clearly not going to agree but here's my take anyway.

    1/ I think you underestimate the effect of the drip, drip anti EU propaganda coming from our wonderful press. Not just the Murdoch titles but the others as well. As we see on sporting issues there is a pack mentality amongst much of our media and xenophobia is popular. Blaming the EU for everything and anything is a great way of appealing to an audience who would, of course, much rather blame johnny foreigner for the ills of our country than look closer to home. Please don't take this as me being superior because in the main it worked on me (I am an above average intelligence ex Grammar School). My attitude to the EU was really quite hostile and I am still quite critical but a change of job exposed me to the views of many people from other nations of the EU and my attitude slowly changed. Do not forget that the anti EU press has been running a very long time - 20years ?

    2/Not sure where the Express readers come into it other than they read the Express which was almost certainly historically anti EU. Murdoch owns the Sun, Times and Sunday Times. We all live in our own bubble and have different life experiences and we all tend to think that everyone we know thinks similarly to us. It has been quite a shock to find out that some of my friends voted leave ! Interestingly I don't know of a single business connection who didn't vote remain. But it really doesn't mean too much.
    I guess what I'm trying to say here is that none of us know what other people think. All I can do is give you my experience and thoughts.

    3/ Your thoughts on the Remain campaign are interesting. I thought it was pathetic and half-hearted and to this day I don't believe the key players were truly invested. You also dismiss the FB/Cambridge Analytica shenanigans but in truth, of course, we have no idea what level of influence they had. Millions of $ have been spent on psycho opps in various elections and you think anyone bringing it up is desperate ? Well, I think it is an extremely serious matter. Forget the Brexit vote for a moment and think about the US elections. Trump appeared to many (inc. plenty inside his own party) to be un-electable but somehow the key electoral colleges were targeted and Trump is POTUS despite losing the popular vote by a significant margin. Now this may have nothing to do with the psycho opps employed but it makes me uneasy that the very same people employed by Trump were employed by the Leave campaign. And the guy behind the whole thing - ultra right wing billionaire Robert Mercer who is American. These are the dark forces I am talking about, add in Putin and his attempts to divide and de-stabilise the West and you have a smorgasbord of forces aligned to undo our democracies.

    4/ I am not an advocate of a federal Europe and there is a large degree of push-back from the electorates of many of the key member states. I don't see this as dark forces. More like people driving an open agenda. Remember that each state parliament has the right to say no and they are lected by the people. We are not run by the EU, we are the EU and can shape it's destiny. Well, we were but it seems that is over and we will become a bystander forced to accept whatever the EU decides.
    It's strange but even my attitude to a federal Europe is softening since the Brexit vote. I look at the Ministers of our current Govt and their lack of integrity and I look at Corbyn and think 'can it be any worse?' But for now that is a bridge too far for me and it's not something I'll have to think about as Leave 'won' the day.

    As I said at the start of my post I don't think we are ever going to agree but here's hoping for a prosperous and safe future for us, our children and our children's children.

    Cheers,
    Dave
     
  4. dave_blue12

    dave_blue12

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  5. Vic

    Vic

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    I note the thought that with the murder of Jo Cox “maybe we have gone too far”. There will of course be the usual justifications that all this expensive Nazi propaganda had no effect on how people voted, and it was all a waste of money. "But the Remain campaign spent loads of money, including taxpayers' money". Yes, but not on Nazi propaganda.
     
  6. CityStu

    CityStu

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    That poster wasn't part of the primary Vote Leave campaign. And it's impossible to directly attribute that awful murder to that poster - there's a huge amount of personal responsibility there.

    Back to Brexit, the pound's back at $1.43 - nigh on equal to its value before the referendum - on the back of a strong, consistent run of growth.
     
  7. kevin horlocks wand

    kevin horlocks wand

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    I cant work out the narrative of the remainers when the £ fell that was bad wasn't it and an I told you so moment ? Now it is back against the dollar - is that bad as well and another I told you so moment ?

    I can't keep up
     
  8. CityStu

    CityStu

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    The first case is because of Brexit and the second is because Brexit hasn't happened yet. These positions aren't at all contrary...
     
  9. blueinsa

    blueinsa

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    In a thread thats about to get pulled.
    Nearly right mate.

    Initially it was because we had left Europe even though we hadn't left Europe yet and now its only because we haven't left Europe yet.

    Confused? You will be.
     
  10. kevin horlocks wand

    kevin horlocks wand

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