Pep Guardiola - 2017/18 performances

Discussion in 'Player Performances' started by dave_blue12, 22 Aug 2017.

  1. domalino

    domalino

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    He's not wrong. The desire to copy Guardiola resulted in some awful sides with awful players as people misinterpreted his style or weren't good enough to copy it.

    The ability to play with the ball has always got to be in addition to the rest of someone's game, not as an alternative to it.

    There are a lot of good old school defenders out there who got badly affected by would-be Guardiola's - John Terry under Villas-Boas is a classic example.


    IMO it's a massive shame that "possession" was the main takeaway from Pep's Barcelona, it wasn't the feature that set them apart, there were plenty of possession dominant coaches around before 2008, LVG, Wenger etc.What Guardiola did was use the possession much more effectively, and marry it to very high intensity.

    If people had taken that away instead, we'd never have had to suffer some of the tripe that was served up in the following years as everyone tried to immitate them.
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2017
  2. twosips

    twosips

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    The idea that Pep is solely concerned with ball playing defenders is also nonsense. Stones has improved his core fundamental defending abilities a fucking load this year under Pep. He's more aggressive, better in the air, positionally vastly better. He's also made Otamendi actually focus. Look what he's done to Delph seemingly overnight. He's turned him into a LB.

    Pep values defending loads. It's just most coaches misunderstand his methods vastly
     
  3. Andrew___K

    Andrew___K

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    Chiellini's point vastly differs from yours though. He says: we don't need this new stuff, it's against our culture, we need to get back to good old catenaccio with loads of 1-on-1 defending ("You need that healthy desire to seek contact, to feel the opponent"). He himself is a specialist in personal defending and probably struggles with any other type of play. Not even a word about the need to learn something new.

    There was a great article by Rene Maric (now RB Salzburg's assistant manager) about almost similar comments from G.Neville, who lamented the decline of defending: "I look at some teams and feel: they don’t know how to defend. They struggle with crosses, they don’t deal with set-pieces, they don’t know how to work one on one. They have a weak understanding of the game." Basically showing that Neville's knowledge of the game got stuck somewhere in 90s.

    http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/11/21/the-problem-with-english-football/
     
  4. SilverFox2

    SilverFox2

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    Now that was a really interesting article.

    I suppose the problem with old players is that they seem unable to continue to learn and assume their achievements of yesteryear are still the way things should be done. To be fair Neville also being a red sees the historical right of his team to rule as justification for his historical views of the rights and wrongs of defending.

    In other sectors of business change is expected with 5 year business plans updated every month or so to cope with change. The objectives and methods to achieve same of even one year ago are usually alarmingly different than the original draft.
    Why should football be different, Pep has brought radical change to the English game but up to recently the media considered the PL to be superior to his style and able to expose its flaws.
    How complacent some have been.
     
  5. domalino

    domalino

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    Maric's view is not the opposite of Chiellini's though, and Chiellini's views are not the same as Neville's.

    Chiellini and that Juventus side are more than adept at modern defensive tactics that Maric talks about in his article. Allegri in particular has that side doing defensive strategies that are way above Neville's idea of defending, and right in line with the kind of thing RM says England is lacking. Take this explanation of Juventus' strategy in the CL final last year written on Spielverlagerung:

    Against Real’s defensive circulation Juventus were largely in a passive 4-4-2-0 shape, where their organisation was not challenged anywhere as the forwards were so close to the second line, thus providing support in the half spaces and having access to either the fullback or central midfielder. There was however, some asymmetry as part of their aim to reduce the influence of the Real midfielders. Higuain would often position himself to block Casemiro, Dybala likewise on Kroos, whilst Mandzukic the nominal left midfielder would stay narrow to block his mercurial countryman Luka Modric. This led to 4-3-3-0 structures which could flexibly move into 3-4-3 with Sandro pushing up on the left to press Carvajal.

    This positioning would encourage dribbles or passes towards the full-backs from the Madrid centre backs. When the ball was forced into Marcelo or Carvajal, Juventus would press more intensely, with the ball-near players marking the nearby opponents. Real would thus be forced to re-circulate across their back line. This was a further trigger Juventus to move up from their zonal defensive base to a man-oriented high pressing approach.

    Vitally, whilst the Juventus forwards moved up to press the Madrid defensive line, they used their cover shadows to prevent passes in the opposite direction, which would have killed their pressing momentum. This allowed the Italians to force Real into riskier circulation, where their chances of regaining possession increased. Once the ball had been forced to the opposite side, Real would have to play into the centre, where the receiver’s field of vision was facing the nearby touchline. In these situations, Juventus could outnumber the receiver with a number of ball-near players




    Ball near pressing, switching from zone to man oriented marking based on triggers, assymetrical formations - these are not exactly cutting edge but they're not the tactics of Tony Pulis or Gary Neville either. Chiellini wouldn't be in that side if he didn't understand more complex models of defending, or the values of defending off the ball, so for you to say he can only defend physically like he's some sort of Italian Ryan Shawcross is wrong.

    So we can safely assume that Chiellini knows a bit more than the basics defensively speaking, he's not tied down to a 90's appreciation of that part of the game, he is well versed in modern defensive tactics, so his comments are much more likely to be about the post 2012 idolisation of possession above all else which did happen as people failed to copy Pep's Barca then bemoaning people for not defending like 80's Wimbledon.


    If he really thought in line with Neville, or as per your interpretation of the tweet then it would be an absolute miracle for him or Juventus to have ever done so well in Europe.
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2017
  6. Cityfan

    Cityfan

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    Good point, our defenders appear to have improved individually as well as collectively as defenders this season.
     
  7. City_Sean

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    Think Leicester could be a massive game. We win it and I think we'll go into the derby with a 10 point lead. Wonder if Pep will do his curveball tactic of using Walker as a RB/RCB to combat the pace of Vardy.
     
  8. jimharri

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  9. vmsuhail

    vmsuhail

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    Other than the England manager choosing to play ball playing defender, what change has Pep brought to England? . It's Conte I think who has brought changes to the English game with more teams now changing their formation and emphasis to a back 3.
     
  10. mosssideblue

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    Totally agree. With no additions from last season, we would not be as dominant as we are. He just needed the right players.
     

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