Phil Foden - 2017/18 performances

[WallyA]

Hi thanks for taking the time to address my post, I can see where you're coming from but I have my obvious retorts..



Pep has never ever set out to bring young players through as a priority. His goal is to win games and have them play his way. It's always been as such. However if there are younger players who fit the bill then he's more than happy to play them. He doesn't care for age too much, but he does care for ability and reliability. As has been said, Pep likes young players for the fact they're easier to mould under his 'vision'. But they need to be ready. We've seen last season (with the fullbacks mainly) how damaging it can be to the way we play having 'passengers' in the team. It's the same for youth.

Like I said in my earlier post; that because of the physicality of the PL, there's even more pressure on each individual in our team to perform than in other leagues. Even in the 'easy' games. Pep is going to avoid playing youngsters unless he feels that they're really ready for the fight.

And that's why the Girona deal (amongst others) is so important. Because Girona can give them opportunities to play that City can't. There is too much pressure at City to take a chance. I don't know if you've ever seen a matchday thread on here, but if Pep played a kid and it backfired there'd be the opposite of sympathy. Let them play and develop there. Let them get used to senior football in a competitive league. Remove the risk of not knowing if they're going to make it at the top level by having them trial it out at Girona.

Umm I don't think any of your retorts are valid, respectively, I will address each one.

1) You said Delph was a bad example and then used Toure as a new example, except this season Pep has not fancied Toure either...

2) You completely ignored the point of my argument, I didn't say Foden was ready for first team football, but against Celtic we had no way to go up or down in our group (champions league) and foden was a sub, everybody who knew about foden's talents expected him to get subbed on because the game was pointless, but Pep still refused to do it, this told me his attitude towards giving minutes towards youth.

3) You are simply saying that Pep has spent money at Bayern and Barca, yes, but he has never brought it so many players in his time there as he has here. Forget about inflation, just list the number of players Pep has brought in over 2 seasons and he still doesn't fully have the squad he desires.

4) Khaldoon even said Pep was brought in to win titles AND integrate youth players into the squad, he specifically mentioned Pep's history of promoting young players and giving them a chance. After reading your counter point it can be effectively summed up as "Well historically Pep doesn't promote youth anyways so..." That's not good enough. If players needed to be loaned out then why didn't Roberts or Unal get a chance after very impressive loan spells, why did it take him a whole year to try Sterling as a center forward, my thought, is that he isn't that at developing players. We bought Sane and Jesus because they were obvious talents, but any competent manager could work with these guys, Klopp and Poch are better than Pep at developing young players, the point it still true.


Again, I like that we have Girona to send young players to, but Foden shouldn't have to be loaned out for Pep to recognize his talent. I'm not saying he should be playing regularly at 17 years of age, but he should be given the odd cameo in cup games or games that are done and dusted, and Pep may do that, but when he had players like Zinchenko, Roberts, Unal, Nacho who are 20+ in age and great prospects, well you can see why my belief is not very high.

 

[Andrew___K]

Hi thanks for taking the time to address my post, I can see where you're coming from but I have my obvious retorts..



Pep has never ever set out to bring young players through as a priority. His goal is to win games and have them play his way. It's always been as such. However if there are younger players who fit the bill then he's more than happy to play them. He doesn't care for age too much, but he does care for ability and reliability. As has been said, Pep likes young players for the fact they're easier to mould under his 'vision'. But they need to be ready. We've seen last season (with the fullbacks mainly) how damaging it can be to the way we play having 'passengers' in the team. It's the same for youth.

Like I said in my earlier post; that because of the physicality of the PL, there's even more pressure on each individual in our team to perform than in other leagues. Even in the 'easy' games. Pep is going to avoid playing youngsters unless he feels that they're really ready for the fight.

And that's why the Girona deal (amongst others) is so important. Because Girona can give them opportunities to play that City can't. There is too much pressure at City to take a chance. I don't know if you've ever seen a matchday thread on here, but if Pep played a kid and it backfired there'd be the opposite of sympathy. Let them play and develop there. Let them get used to senior football in a competitive league. Remove the risk of not knowing if they're going to make it at the top level by having them trial it out at Girona.

Top post. I'd like to emphasize that main goals of the reformed Academy are purely sporting ones, not PR, bonding with fanbase or some general 'youth development'. The problem is there's no place where you can get enough players for Positional Play, they aren't produced in numbers yet (though the philosophy is spreading, Real Madrid are clearly on that path). You're either produce them yourself, teaching from grassroots, or buy suitable ones for crazy prices and try to mould them (Bernardo Silva). The first approach is better in both sporting and financial aspects.

It's a technology of domination, golden opportunity that is being explored by City now. Wait 10 years more, and the window of opportunities will narrow significantly, as all revolutionary inventions are being spread sooner or later, levelling the field. Right now we're living in a post-Pepselona football world, the major input was made in 2008-12 by Pep's and Klopp's teams on a basis that had been formed by that time (Cruyff, La Masia golden generation, major reform of football education in Germany etc.), and you can see their innovations being slowly integrated into everyday coaching across the world. The youngsters are needed to implement innovations better and quicker than others, not for the sake of youth itself.

3) You are simply saying that Pep has spent money at Bayern and Barca, yes, but he has never brought it so many players in his time there as he has here. Forget about inflation, just list the number of players Pep has brought in over 2 seasons and he still doesn't fully have the squad he desires.

That teams had already very strong squads, City's team last year looked, frankly speaking, average in comparison. The tendency to overrate our players is usual for this board. And he needs players of the right 'type', not just good footballers.
Besides, Guardiola never had so much power in terms of squad management. I think at Bayern he had almost zero say in transfers, the team was formed by the board. Guess it was one of the main reasons why Pep refused to extend with Bayern.

 

[mccity]

Umm I don't think any of your retorts are valid, respectively, I will address each one.

1) You said Delph was a bad example and then used Toure as a new example, except this season Pep has not fancied Toure either... Well I guess he's not good enough right now. But that's this year. Did he not last year? After 5 months in the wilderness? You're clearly ignoring my point with this one.

2) You completely ignored the point of my argument, I didn't say Foden was ready for first team football, but against Celtic we had no way to go up or down in our group (champions league) and foden was a sub, everybody who knew about foden's talents expected him to get subbed on because the game was pointless, but Pep still refused to do it, this told me his attitude towards giving minutes towards youth. He has a first team to manage, players to keep happy. They're his first priority. How many 16 year olds played in the CL last season? And given he wasn't good enough, something vitally important to Pep, of course he didn't play.

3) You are simply saying that Pep has spent money at Bayern and Barca, yes, but he has never brought it so many players in his time there as he has here. Forget about inflation, just list the number of players Pep has brought in over 2 seasons and he still doesn't fully have the squad he desires. He actually brought in more first team players per season for Bayern than City so far. He also chucked relatively big money around on quite a few players at the time he was Barcelona.

4) Khaldoon even said Pep was brought in to win titles AND integrate youth players into the squad, he specifically mentioned Pep's history of promoting young players and giving them a chance. After reading your counter point it can be effectively summed up as "Well historically Pep doesn't promote youth anyways so..." That's not good enough. If players needed to be loaned out then why didn't Roberts or Unal get a chance after very impressive loan spells, why did it take him a whole year to try Sterling as a center forward, my thought, is that he isn't that at developing players. We bought Sane and Jesus because they were obvious talents, but any competent manager could work with these guys, Klopp and Poch are better than Pep at developing young players, the point it still true. Roberts, Zinchenko and Unal haven't really featured in our academy at any stage. Why should they get time ahead of actual academy players? Maybe don't be hypocritical too, you suggested in another thread we play Delph of all players ahead of Zinchenko at LB if need be.
And at what age do you stop being a youth player? Pep had no problems integrating 20 year old Jesus or 21 year old Sane into the side. And also go on then, name me 10 players Pep brought into a first team that didn't play for a B-Team, a reserve team or go out on loan somewhere first. Pep has never been good enough for youth in any other regard. Maybe write a strongly worded letter to Khaldoon and maybe he'll address the problem by bringing Poch in for you.


Again, I like that we have Girona to send young players to, but Foden shouldn't have to be loaned out for Pep to recognize his talent. I'm not saying he should be playing regularly at 17 years of age, but he should be given the odd cameo in cup games or games that are done and dusted, and Pep may do that, but when he had players like Zinchenko, Roberts, Unal, Nacho who are 20+ in age and great prospects, well you can see why my belief is not very high. And so it shouldn't be.

You need to understand, Pep is extraordinarily meticulous and demanding with his plans. He doesn't adjust for the sake of it. He doesn't adjust his gameplan so that we might fare slightly better in games. He doesn't adjust his gameplan so he can include a couple kids for the sake of it and he doesn't change his gameplan so a few of us on bluemoon are satisfied. Right now, in the short term, you and others are going to have to get used to the fact he's just not going to play that many kids. Sure it'll change in the future but right now it won't. So moan all you want, but unless you're planning on doing something about it you should get used to it.

Or go support Ajax or something where the average age in the first team is like 12 or something

Top post. I'd like to emphasize that main goals of the reformed Academy are purely sporting ones, not PR, bonding with fanbase or some general 'youth development'. The problem is there's no place where you can get enough players for Positional Play, they aren't produced in numbers yet (though the philosophy is spreading, Real Madrid are clearly on that path). You're either produce them yourself, teaching from grassroots, or buy suitable ones for crazy prices and try to mould them (Bernardo Silva). The first approach is better in both sporting and financial aspects.

It's a technology of domination, golden opportunity that is being explored by City now. Wait 10 years more, and the window of opportunities will narrow significantly, as all revolutionary inventions are being spread sooner or later, levelling the field. Right now we're living in a post-Pepselona football world, the major input was made in 2008-12 by Pep's and Klopp's teams on a basis that had been formed by that time (Cruyff, La Masia golden generation, major reform of football education in Germany etc.), and you can see their innovations being slowly integrated into everyday coaching across the world. The youngsters are needed to implement innovations better and quicker than others, not for the sake of youth itself.

Thanks!
I agree with you entirely, it'll be really interesting to see how City measure up in 10 years time. The steps we're making now to get ahead should be starting to pay massive dividends around that time (I hope!)

.

 

[WallyA]

You need to understand, Pep is extraordinarily meticulous and demanding with his plans. He doesn't adjust for the sake of it. He doesn't adjust his gameplan so that we might fare slightly better in games. He doesn't adjust his gameplan so he can include a couple kids for the sake of it and he doesn't change his gameplan so a few of us on bluemoon are satisfied. Right now, in the short term, you and others are going to have to get used to the fact he's just not going to play that many kids. Sure it'll change in the future but right now it won't. So moan all you want, but unless you're planning on doing something about it you should get used to it.

Or go support Ajax or something where the average age in the first team is like 12 or something



Thanks!
I agree with you entirely, it'll be really interesting to see how City measure up in 10 years time. The steps we're making now to get ahead should be starting to pay massive dividends around that time (I hope!)

.

I thought we were having a good conversation here and then you go and be condescending towards me.

In your entire post you haven't said anything noteworthy, your just talking superfluously about Pep, that he will be amazing for our youth, when in fact even you yourself have claimed he historically doesn't promote youth.

 

[WallyA]

Top post. I'd like to emphasize that main goals of the reformed Academy are purely sporting ones, not PR, bonding with fanbase or some general 'youth development'. The problem is there's no place where you can get enough players for Positional Play, they aren't produced in numbers yet (though the philosophy is spreading, Real Madrid are clearly on that path). You're either produce them yourself, teaching from grassroots, or buy suitable ones for crazy prices and try to mould them (Bernardo Silva). The first approach is better in both sporting and financial aspects.

It's a technology of domination, golden opportunity that is being explored by City now. Wait 10 years more, and the window of opportunities will narrow significantly, as all revolutionary inventions are being spread sooner or later, levelling the field. Right now we're living in a post-Pepselona football world, the major input was made in 2008-12 by Pep's and Klopp's teams on a basis that had been formed by that time (Cruyff, La Masia golden generation, major reform of football education in Germany etc.), and you can see their innovations being slowly integrated into everyday coaching across the world. The youngsters are needed to implement innovations better and quicker than others, not for the sake of youth itself.


That teams had already very strong squads, City's team last year looked, frankly speaking, average in comparison. The tendency to overrate our players is usual for this board. And he needs players of the right 'type', not just good footballers.
Besides, Guardiola never had so much power in terms of squad management. I think at Bayern he had almost zero say in transfers, the team was formed by the board. Guess it was one of the main reasons why Pep refused to extend with Bayern.

I'm not trying to claim our squad was amazing but seriously consider the number of players he has brought in over 2 seasons and Pep complains about getting more players. Also your point about Bayern is exactly what I said in my first point, he didn't have much control, but nor did Bayern bring in many players, Pep adapted to his squad. If he didn't have unlimited resources at City Pep would have to resort to the academy. Anyways I've completely forgotten the whole reason for these posts so far, something about having faith in our academy producing players for our first team? Well both you guys have funnily enough agreed with me that it's not the point and doesn't really matter so I guess our conversation has concluded.

 

[mccity]

I thought we were having a good conversation here and then you go and be condescending towards me.

In your entire post you haven't said anything noteworthy, your just talking superfluously about Pep, that he will be amazing for our youth, when in fact even you yourself have claimed he historically doesn't promote youth.

Well I do apologise if I came across that way. I don't think I suggested Pep would be good for youth. I merely spoke as to how he operates. I did suggest he'd be weak at promoting youth by your standards however.

 

[FantasyIreland]

Lets keep this thread focused on Foden please.

If you wish to discuss the wider topic of youth opportunity and progression,then please do so here.....
http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/eds-future-opportunities-and-progression.321280/

 

[Dicko69]

My only disappointment with the game yesterday was that I thought it was perfect opportunity for him to get some minutes against top opposition. 20-30mins would of done him the world of good in a pretty low rusk situation

 

[shemnel]

My only disappointment with the game yesterday was that I thought it was perfect opportunity for him to get some minutes against top opposition. 20-30mins would of done him the world of good in a pretty low rusk situation

yes i really think he could have had a 20 min run out but then again we've got quite a few senior players who are probably thinking the same thing....

his time will come later in the season and in the cups

 

[BigOscar]

Too many first teamers needing fitness to think about giving him a run out just yet. He can stay fit playing with the EDS, but for people like Mangala, Bernardo, Gundogan and Sane they need those first team minutes as we'll be relying on them to start games soon.