The Hillsborough Family Support Group Against Safe Standing.

[blue b4 the moon]

I'll never be convinced that standing was the problem.

For whatever reason it seems the cops let the Liverpool fans in as a large mob, the reason this was done will never be properly known but, if the stand had been seated they would have still paniced and let them in? The chances are they would.

The result would have been a massive crush in the tunnel leading to the stand out of sight of TV which IMHO would have led to even more pointless deaths as nobody would have seen the carnage.

Seats are just a way to fleece us of more money and this incident along with crap policing in Belguim was a way of 'legally' doing it.

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

I'll never be convinced that standing was the problem.

For whatever reason it seems the cops let the Liverpool fans in as a large mob, the reason this was done will never be properly known but, if the stand had been seated they would have still paniced and let them in? The chances are they would.

The result would have been a massive crush in the tunnel leading to the stand out of sight of TV which IMHO would have led to even more pointless deaths as nobody would have seen the carnage.

Seats are just a way to fleece us of more money and this incident along with crap policing in Belguim was a way of 'legally' doing it.

The police let the fans in on masse because if they hadn't fans would have died in a crush outside!
Hillsborough's away end wasn't like The Kippax, a huge wall around the outside. Leppings Lane had a walled (on 3 sides) enclosed space leading to the turnstyles.... it got way over crowded and the police decided to open the exit gates to ease congestion.
Also, a large number of fans were arriving late because the police held their coaches up coming off the motorway and then brought them all in together at the last minute

 

[mattbw7]

utd fan in peace, these views have been expressed on this thread in that the families connected to Hillsbrough have every right to object to standind areas returning to English football, however I would urge them to reconsider thier position in that it wasn't as a direct of standing that they lost loved ones, rather it was the the ineptitude of the police and the commander in charge that day, coupled with the archaic design of the ground (cages FFS) that contributed to that awful tragedy more than anything else.
I've heard a few journalists this week who where present at the time and at Heysel who swear they never want to see the same again, but surely this misses the point, I fully accept that people who've witnessed a tragedy(say an airplane crash) are so affected they can't see anything other than the suffering caused however if we all took that view air travel would not exist.

The problem is not standing areas, its whether we can even have a debate without being shouted down by a vocal minority.

 

[KansasCITY]

My high school's student section for basketball has no seats whatsoever. Either you stand or you sit somewhere else. Add to that we pack in WAY more people in that one area than what the healthy capacity should be. I've sat on the railings at times. Know how many injuries have came out of this? None. We've been doing this the same way for 50 years. If we can manage that, then why can't there be safe standing in football?

 

[tamsie]

I'll never be convinced that standing was the problem.

For whatever reason it seems the cops let the Liverpool fans in as a large mob, the reason this was done will never be properly known but, if the stand had been seated they would have still paniced and let them in? The chances are they would.

The result would have been a massive crush in the tunnel leading to the stand out of sight of TV which IMHO would have led to even more pointless deaths as nobody would have seen the carnage.

Seats are just a way to fleece us of more money and this incident along with crap policing in Belguim was a way of 'legally' doing it.

You are wrong standing was the problem that end would have had a 1/10th of the people in it/trying to get in had it been seated. Now it can be safe to stand I do it most weeks I dont mind paying a bit more for me and my son to go and stand up with a seat as I now its safe. The debate on costs is lost COMS could hold 60,000 plus if we had standing. The issue is about the mentally of people who want to stand. People died for 2 reasons 1 the very poor policing and attitudes of the police 2. the huge fences that had been put up treating us like animals why because some a few idiots wanted to fight and carry on at every game.

I seem to read a total lack of understanding in this thread its painful.<br /><br />-- Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:15 pm --<br /><br />

My high school's student section for basketball has no seats whatsoever. Either you stand or you sit somewhere else. Add to that we pack in WAY more people in that one area than what the healthy capacity should be. I've sat on the railings at times. Know how many injuries have came out of this? None. We've been doing this the same way for 50 years. If we can manage that, then why can't there be safe standing in football?

WE also do it over here in rugby league/union the home and away fans stand together drinking beer. Its the few idiots again who think football is a war. Go and stand at a concert over here and you are lucky if you dont get soaked in someones piss. We have idiots watching football who spoli it for us all they want standing because they can hide. Seats allow them and us to weed them out and kick them out. I stand every week I just have to pay for a seat I dont mind its safe and dickheads dont spoli it for me

 

[blue b4 the moon]

I'll never be convinced that standing was the problem.

For whatever reason it seems the cops let the Liverpool fans in as a large mob, the reason this was done will never be properly known but, if the stand had been seated they would have still paniced and let them in? The chances are they would.

The result would have been a massive crush in the tunnel leading to the stand out of sight of TV which IMHO would have led to even more pointless deaths as nobody would have seen the carnage.

Seats are just a way to fleece us of more money and this incident along with crap policing in Belguim was a way of 'legally' doing it.

You are wrong standing was the problem that end would have had a 1/10th of the people in it/trying to get in had it been seated. Now it can be safe to stand I do it most weeks I dont mind paying a bit more for me and my son to go and stand up with a seat as I now its safe. The debate on costs is lost COMS could hold 60,000 plus if we had standing. The issue is about the mentally of people who want to stand. People died for 2 reasons 1 the very poor policing and attitudes of the police 2. the huge fences that had been put up treating us like animals why because some a few idiots wanted to fight and carry on at every game.

I seem to read a total lack of understanding in this thread its painful.

-- Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:15 pm --

My high school's student section for basketball has no seats whatsoever. Either you stand or you sit somewhere else. Add to that we pack in WAY more people in that one area than what the healthy capacity should be. I've sat on the railings at times. Know how many injuries have came out of this? None. We've been doing this the same way for 50 years. If we can manage that, then why can't there be safe standing in football?

WE also do it over here in rugby league/union the home and away fans stand together drinking beer. Its the few idiots again who think football is a war. Go and stand at a concert over here and you are lucky if you dont get soaked in someones piss. We have idiots watching football who spoli it for us all they want standing because they can hide. Seats allow them and us to weed them out and kick them out. I stand every week I just have to pay for a seat I dont mind its safe and dickheads dont spoli it for me

You seem to assume that everybody who was let in by the police had tickets. I'm not having it that all who got in late on all had tickets. But maybe I'm reading your reply incorrectly.

I don't want to get into a debate on this as people died at a football game and that should never ever be allowed to happen again.

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

I'll never be convinced that standing was the problem.

For whatever reason it seems the cops let the Liverpool fans in as a large mob, the reason this was done will never be properly known but, if the stand had been seated they would have still paniced and let them in? The chances are they would.

The result would have been a massive crush in the tunnel leading to the stand out of sight of TV which IMHO would have led to even more pointless deaths as nobody would have seen the carnage.

Seats are just a way to fleece us of more money and this incident along with crap policing in Belguim was a way of 'legally' doing it.

You are wrong standing was the problem that end would have had a 1/10th of the people in it/trying to get in had it been seated. Now it can be safe to stand I do it most weeks

Not correct. The capacity of the Leppings Lane was not exceeded. The two outer pens were less than half full each. The issue was the stand was split into 4 pens. Had been just one area, people would have moved sideways safely. There was no one at the end of the tunnel directing fans to the side pens and blocking off entrance to the full centre pens

 

[BertTrautmann'sParachute]

This Hillsborough Support Group, whose members are fully deserving of our sympathy, are the equivalent of someone who has been punched in the face airing their views on boxing. They are victims, not experts...

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

This Hillsborough Support Group, whose members are fully deserving of our sympathy, are the equivalent of someone who has been punched in the face airing their views on boxing. They are victims, not experts...

Nail. Head.
Here we have a regulation (it is not legislation by the way) based on emotion rather than engineering / technological facts.

 

[tamsie]

You are wrong standing was the problem that end would have had a 1/10th of the people in it/trying to get in had it been seated. Now it can be safe to stand I do it most weeks

Not correct. The capacity of the Leppings Lane was not exceeded. The two outer pens were less than half full each. The issue was the stand was split into 4 pens. Had been just one area, people would have moved sideways safely. There was no one at the end of the tunnel directing fans to the side pens and blocking off entrance to the full centre pens

Thats my point!!!! The capacity, because it was standing, was far to high for the enterances and the turnstiles. Standing pushed too many people into smaller areas. I think everyone agrees that the gatse were opened before the middel gate was closed due to the police fuck up. Maybe that could change with safe standing but I still feel to say standing played no part isnt correct and is foolish. The concept of safe standing is all wrong. Standing up at a football match is fine as long as everyone has a space i.e. a seat. It works why change it lets just add standing areas to the all seater ground just like we have done.