Train ticket prices

lust overlord said:
Nah mate it's nothing to do with privatisation.
;)
More people use the trains now than ever before.Yet peak prices continue to rise.
Ironically many of the parent companies of train providers in the UK are state owned foreign providers.
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It isn't because of privatisation.

As I said, if privatisation doesn't work then how come Amazon gives you great service and low prices?

Privatisation doesn't work when there's insufficient competition, since private companies seek to maximise profits and will do so at the expense of investment and customer service if able to do so.

If they have competition - or a competent regulator - then they are not able to do so.

Why do you think private retailers often offer "no quibble money back guarantees"? Is it because that costs them nothing and increases their profits? Of course not, quite the opposite. It costs them money, but nevertheless they do it since they are in a competitive environment and have learned that better customer service = better customer loyalty and repeat business = more revenues = more profits.

This whole customer driven ethos is completely missing from the train companies since they have no competition for the duration of their franchise agreement. and a regulator who lets them get away with murder. Tickets that can't be cancelled and refunded; being treated like a criminal if you sit in the wrong seat or catch the wrong train; relentless price increases; lack of investment etc etc etc. This is all because the train companies are being allowed to get away with it, since the regulator is useless and they have no competition on the service they are providing.

Done properly, privatisation works.
 
Chippy_boy said:
It isn't because of privatisation.

As I said, if privatisation doesn't work then how come Amazon gives you great service and low prices?

Privatisation doesn't work when there's insufficient competition, since private companies seek to maximise profits and will do so at the expense of investment and customer service if able to do so.

If they have competition - or a competent regulator - then they are not able to do so.

Why do you think private retailers often offer "no quibble money back guarantees"? Is it because that costs them nothing and increases their profits? Of course not, quite the opposite. It costs them money, but nevertheless they do it since they are in a competitive environment and have learned that better customer service = better customer loyalty and repeat business = more revenues = more profits.

This whole customer driven ethos is completely missing from the train companies since they have no competition for the duration of their franchise agreement. and a regulator who lets them get away with murder. Tickets that can't be cancelled and refunded; being treated like a criminal if you sit in the wrong seat or catch the wrong train; relentless price increases; lack of investment etc etc etc. This is all because the train companies are being allowed to get away with it, since the regulator is useless and they have no competition on the service they are providing.

Done properly, privatisation works.
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Not on the railways it doesn't.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I don't agree that privatisation is the cause. Would you advocate privatising Sainsbury's or John Lewis as a result of their poor service and them being private? The cause is lack of proper competition because they fucked up how the rail privatisation was done.

If you could travel between Bristol and London on Virgin Trains and GWR and Cross Country, then you'd have the situation where passengers would think "Hmmmm, shall I take the 7:30 Virgin Train, which is £xyz but I get the great table-side service and excellent breakfast? Or perhaps the 7:45 GWR train, which is a bit cheaper and they have those excellent reclining seats?"

We'd have REAL competition and prices would have come down and down and down, just like Easyjet and Ryanair have driven airfares down and made that affordable.
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If Sainsburys or John Lewis consistently offered poor service, lack of choice and high prices for low quality products then they'd go out of business. Thier competitors, who did provide the right level of service would then benefit.

The railways, on the other hand, form part of our essential national infrastructure. Without them, people couldn't travel to work and goods couldn't be moved. I agree privatisation was badly handled but there is no way that the sort of competition we see on the high street could be applied to the railways, in the way you are advocating, for all sorts of reasons. Profitable routes would be cherry-picked and less profitable ones ignored. Capacity is limited. Etc.

Germany manages to run a state railway perfectly adequately. So much so that Deutsche Bahn own or part own the companies that run a lot of our UK franchises. I was in the USA recently and looking at travelling from Phoenix to LA by train. The journey is 420 miles, so approximately a return trip from Manchester to London. I could do that London round trip in four and a half hours yet to do the same distance in the USA would take over 15 hours and the one service only runs three times a week.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
If Sainsburys or John Lewis consistently offered poor service, lack of choice and high prices for low quality products then they'd go out of business. Thier competitors, who did provide the right level of service would then benefit.

The railways, on the other hand, form part of our essential national infrastructure. Without them, people couldn't travel to work and goods couldn't be moved. I agree privatisation was badly handled but there is no way that the sort of competition we see on the high street could be applied to the railways, in the way you are advocating, for all sorts of reasons. Profitable routes would be cherry-picked and less profitable ones ignored. Capacity is limited. Etc.

Germany manages to run a state railway perfectly adequately. So much so that Deutsche Bahn own or part own the companies that run a lot of our UK franchises. I was in the USA recently and looking at travelling from Phoenix to LA by train. The journey is 420 miles, so approximately a return trip from Manchester to London. I could do that London round trip in four and a half hours yet to do the same distance in the USA would take over 15 hours and the one service only runs three times a week.
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Certain train journeys in the UK are reasonably priced and offer a good or at least decent service.

Others are shocking cash cows where the customer is fleeced because they have nowhere else to go and no alternative. These are typically the peak time commuter routes in and out of London, where no cheap tickets are offered.

The Bristol to London line is a good example. Between 6 in the morning and 9 in the morning, there are 17 trains travelling from Bristol to London Paddington, at no more than 30 minute intervals and most much less - from two Bristol stations. There would have been AMPLE opportunity to give half of these services to say Virgin and the other half to GWR, and then we'd have had proper competition, service improvement and price reductions. Just like in every other walk of life where private enterprise and competition exist.

But no, GWR has had the whole lot. When you have a 10:00 meeting in London, your choices are (a) go the night before and blow £100+ on a hotel room (plus your train ticket) or (b) belly up the £219 to GWR. They have you over a barrel, and the regulator lets them. Moreover, did you know that First Class fares are not even regulated at all? The train operator can charge literally anything they like - literally!

But if you seriously think that nationalising these businesses is the way forward, you honestly need your lumps feeling. My sister worked for British Rail when you left school in 1984. She worked from 7 in the morning until 1pm. After 1pm she was paid double time for several hours, but was actually sent home to do nothing and was paid for doing so, on the basis that "they needed to pretend they were very busy and need the staff". I am not making this up.

That is the world Fumble wants to return us to.
 
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