United thread 2012/13 (inc merged IPO thread)

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SWP's back

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Braggster said:
SWP's back said:
Braggster said:
Quite right. SWP'S back is talking nonsense. Underwriters don't have any kind of ongoing control-they're in the same boat as ordinary passive minority shareholders in public companies
Total crap. Each IPO is written on, and underwritten on individual terms. Much the same way that any loan may have different guarantees.
It's you who is talking crap I am afraid. Once the IPO is away the underwriters have the same rights as any other shareholder and are certainly not in position to dictate how the company conducts its business. Not sure where you got the idea that it's like a loan because it really isn't.
It depends entirely on what written agreements are put in place, along with compensation packages, to get an investment bank to agree to underwrite an IPO in the first place. I am not sure how you can't understand that.
 
Braggster said:
SWP's back said:
Braggster said:
Quite right. SWP'S back is talking nonsense. Underwriters don't have any kind of ongoing control-they're in the same boat as ordinary passive minority shareholders in public companies
Total crap. Each IPO is written on, and underwritten on individual terms. Much the same way that any loan may have different guarantees.
It's you who is talking crap I am afraid. Once the IPO is away the underwriters have the same rights as any other shareholder and are certainly not in position to dictate how the company conducts its business. Not sure where you got the idea that it's like a loan because it really isn't.

SWP getting shot down in a Financial debate?

Fucking hell, I'm grabbing the popcorn for this one....
 
Before this develops into a will-waving abuse contest, the simple fact is that none of us know what terms were agreed between the rags and the underwriters. There will certainly have been fees and discounts so that the underwriters buy the shares at a discount before selling to investors at full price. That's mostly how they manage the risk I believe.

There may also have been indemnities given but we'll almost certainly never know that.
 
sjk2008 said:
Braggster said:
SWP's back said:
Total crap. Each IPO is written on, and underwritten on individual terms. Much the same way that any loan may have different guarantees.
It's you who is talking crap I am afraid. Once the IPO is away the underwriters have the same rights as any other shareholder and are certainly not in position to dictate how the company conducts its business. Not sure where you got the idea that it's like a loan because it really isn't.

SWP getting shot down in a Financial debate?

Fucking hell, I'm grabbing the popcorn for this one....

No, not really

Each type of underwriting varies in the amount of risk the underwriter takes on and how the underwriter is compensated.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/underwriteripo.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers ... teripo.asp</a><br /><br />-- Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:00 am --<br /><br />
Prestwich_Blue said:
Before this develops into a will-waving abuse contest, the simple fact is that none of us know what terms were agreed between the rags and the underwriters. There will certainly have been fees and discounts so that the underwriters buy the shares at a discount before selling to investors at full price. That's mostly how they manage the risk I believe.

There may also have been indemnities given but we'll almost certainly never know that.
That is the only point I have made.

For people saying that Utd aren't affected in the slightest if and when the price falls (which it will) are wrong. They may very well be and as I have stated a good few times, we just don't know.
 
SWP's back said:
For people saying that Utd aren't affected in the slightest if and when the price falls (which it will) are wrong. They may very well be and as I have stated a good few times, we just don't know.
It's worth remembering that the Glazers' primary motive in this was almost certainly to reduce their own indebtedness as well as avoid triggering possible penalty clauses in that personal borrowing.

It presumably wouldn't bother them one hoot if the rags had to pick up the bill for any liabilities incurred by the underwriters in underwriting or supporting the IPO. It is a fact that although half the proceeds went to them personally, the rags paid all the issue expenses.

There may be some nasty surprises in the 2013 accounts (if we ever get to see them).
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
SWP's back said:
For people saying that Utd aren't affected in the slightest if and when the price falls (which it will) are wrong. They may very well be and as I have stated a good few times, we just don't know.
It's worth remembering that the Glazers' primary motive in this was almost certainly to reduce their own indebtedness as well as avoid triggering possible penalty clauses in that personal borrowing.

It presumably wouldn't bother them one hoot if the rags had to pick up the bill for any liabilities incurred by the underwriters in underwriting or supporting the IPO. It is a fact that although half the proceeds went to them personally, the rags paid all the issue expenses.

There may be some nasty surprises in the 2013 accounts (if we ever get to see them).
You think all the jiggery pokery will be passed further up the food chain to Manchester United Plc (Cayman)?

That would be a shame.
 
SWP's back said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
SWP's back said:
For people saying that Utd aren't affected in the slightest if and when the price falls (which it will) are wrong. They may very well be and as I have stated a good few times, we just don't know.
It's worth remembering that the Glazers' primary motive in this was almost certainly to reduce their own indebtedness as well as avoid triggering possible penalty clauses in that personal borrowing.

It presumably wouldn't bother them one hoot if the rags had to pick up the bill for any liabilities incurred by the underwriters in underwriting or supporting the IPO. It is a fact that although half the proceeds went to them personally, the rags paid all the issue expenses.

There may be some nasty surprises in the 2013 accounts (if we ever get to see them).
You think all the jiggery pokery will be passed further up the food chain to Manchester United Plc (Cayman)?

That would be a shame.
It would but virtually all the money goes through the UK company initially so if anything is paid out we might get to see it. They still have to report quarterly to the bond holders as well don't they?
 
Interesting article on the Forbes website written in advance of the Facebook IPO talking about pricing and underwriting a new issue.

Granted, it was 20 years ago, but I ran a Syndicate group at an emerging growth investment-banking boutique and had previously worked in a Capital Markets group at a large investment bank. Syndicate/Capital Markets is responsible for managing an IPO. Many wonder why, after all the hype, Facebook really did nothing in trading on Friday. Perhaps my antecdotes will shed some light…

Before companies even start the process, they must file an S-1 with the SEC. On that S-1 is a price range. For companies with a history of financials and earnings, investment bankers tend to set that price at a 15% or so discount to the company’s valuation so that investors get some return on the first day of trading. Why? So that investors feel good about the investment and that sentiment will remain with them for the next offering. Generally, when companies go public, they only offer a limited amount of stock to whet the appetite of investors, and anticipate doing a follow-on offering sometime in the future.

For a “normal” IPO, a company that goes public in the normal course with little media attention, the first step is to build a strong “book” of orders for the offering. If a company wants to sell, for example, one million shares to the public, the order book needs to exceed that one million by some multiple. Back in the less frenzied days in less frenzied industries, having order demand exceed supply by 3-5 times was a good book. The reason why the demand had to exceed supply was that accounts that really wanted the stock would put in inflated orders to make sure they got “filled” on what their true demand. With this level of demand, underwriters would be confident that there would be enough demand in the after market (once the stock begins trading) to support the offering price.

For IPOs that have a lot of interest, the order book can get out of hand. In our first lead-managed IPO at the boutique, our order book was 26 times oversubscribed. This was back in the early 1990s and the company was an innovative technology company. At this level of exuberant demand, the offering price had to be increased because otherwise the company management would be certain to feel that they weren’t getting a fair deal. Companies don’t love to price their stock at $15 and see it open for trading at $30. That said, sometimes there are constraints on how high a IPO can be priced, regardless of demand, because institutional investors may have a limit on the valuation they can pay (ie, on some metric such as a multiple of projected earnings per share). So pricing a “hot” IPO is a bit of a balancing act to determine the “real” order book at what price.

The “book” comes together, generally, on the road show. The road show is usually a week-long tour of the country’s institutional investors with one-on-one meetings for the big accounts (ie Fidelity) and group lunches or breakfasts for the smaller accounts. It is grueling, often with 8 meetings each day. (It used to be that management teams wore suits on road shows…and I was a tech banker.) And, of course, there is retail interest that comes in through investment banks’ syndicate desks but, usually, retail investors get very little IPO stock.

It is important to know the book because pricing and the initial trading is so important. If the stock is priced too high and there is not enough demand to support it at its offering price, the underwriters should “stabilize” the stock, which is to say, put their own capital behind buying the stock to maintain offering price. So, when stocks trade at their IPO price, chances are that the underwriters are supporting the stock, and that there is insufficient demand for the stock at this price. It could mean that the stock was priced too high.

If the stock skyrockets, then many investors who received stock on the IPO feel compelled to sell or “flip” the stock. Once upon a time, flippers were considered a menace and were penalized by not being allowed to participate in subsequent IPOs. I believe that many retail investors who placed orders on Facebook’s IPO were asked to hold their stock for 30-60 days with this implicit penalty looming. Yet, if the stock trades up substantially, underwriters will need to have some flipping in order to have an inventory of stock to sell to those who want to build long-term positions once a stock begins to trade. Again, pricing is a delicate balance between knowing the real order book and what trades will be placed once a stock begins to trade.

What inferences can be drawn for the Facebook IPO?

It suggests that the underwriters priced the IPO at the highest price it could, leaving nothing to create buying interest after the stock began trading. Underwriters should have a view of at what price the stock can trade where there will be buying interest, and price accordingly to ensure that the stock can trade on its own the first day.

It appears that the underwriters had to pay for pricing Facebook at its limit. Because the stock closed at $38.23 on the first day, despite reported enormous retail interest, it suggests that the stock had to be supported by the underwriters in addition to retail buying. It suggests that institutions probably put in orders larger than they wanted to ensure they received IPO stock, but sold out of the offering when the stock didn’t pop. Institutions got out at whatever profits they could lock in (the stock did trade at $42) and retail investors bought in.

It brings into question institutional support, since many institutions were able to buy Facebook prior to the IPO on the private market.

This does not bode well for trading next week. Without a strong finish on the first day of trading, institutional and retail investors alike will approach the stock with trepidation and will most likely take a wait and see attitude. After all, according to Barrons, at $38, Facebook trades for 76 times projected 2012 profits of 50 cents a share and 89 times 2011 earnings. Without a buying interest, the stock could languish until it can engender investor confidence with strong earnings. The next earnings report is three months away.
 
Just been checking up on this (it's quiet at work) and this is how it generally works.

There is usually an additional allocation of around 15% of the shares (which was 2.5m in the rags case). The underwriters can sell those shares on the market without buying them but have the option to purchase them at a discount. So instead of selling 16.67m shares, they could actually sell 19.17m, meaning they "shorted" the extra 2.5m (i.e. sold shares they didn't have). At some point they have to buy these back and they have two ways of doing that.

They will be contracted to buy up shares on the market for a short time if the price comes under pressure but if the price goes down, they simply buy back the "shorted" shares on the market. So if they sold that 2.5m at $14 and the price goes down to $10, they buy back the shares at that price, making $4 per share. If the price goes up, they exercise their option to buy the additional shares at a discount and make a profit that way.

As the price stayed level but the volume of shares was higher than the amount issued, it's probably safe to say there was a fair amount of shorting going on, with people selling shares they didn't own in the hope of buying them back cheaper at some point.
 
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