Yet More Tensions in the States...

[I'm With Stupid]

Don't confuse the Fifth Amendment right with other "rights" you may not actually have.

Well one example was police conducting random stop and searches of vehicles on the highway, where no crime had been committed. They have no legal right to demand that someone allows them to search their car unless they have reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed, nor does the driver have to give them any information if they are not being detained. In fact, I believe they need a warrant to actually search the car itself. Of course, most people comply with the request (and of course they can legally request anything), because they assume that the request of a uniformed police officer must have some sort of legal backing. So some police get flustered when someone refuses their request and in not so many words, tells them to fuck off. And this isn't a trivial thing. People have had thousands of dollars stolen from their car by police because of civil forfeiture laws, for example, so there are very good reasons not to allow the police to look in your car if you happen to have anything valuable in it. Similarly with ID cards, the police have no right to demand your identification or even your name (again, they are free to ask) unless you are being detained for a suspected crime. But again, they are so used to people simply agreeing to the request of a uniformed police officer that their are examples of police officers overstepping the mark and acting as though they have rights that they don't when someone is uncooperative.

These examples are covered by the fourth amendment rather than the fifth.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Well one example was police conducting random stop and searches of vehicles on the highway, where no crime had been committed. They have no legal right to demand that someone allows them to search their car unless they have reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed, nor does the driver have to give them any information if they are not being detained. In fact, I believe they need a warrant to actually search the car itself. Of course, most people comply with the request (and of course they can legally request anything), because they assume that the request of a uniformed police officer must have some sort of legal backing. So some police get flustered when someone refuses their request and in not so many words, tells them to fuck off. And this isn't a trivial thing. People have had thousands of dollars stolen from their car by police because of civil forfeiture laws, for example, so there are very good reasons not to allow the police to look in your car if you happen to have anything valuable in it. Similarly with ID cards, the police have no right to demand your identification or even your name (again, they are free to ask) unless you are being detained for a suspected crime. But again, they are so used to people simply agreeing to the request of a uniformed police officer that their are examples of police officers overstepping the mark and acting as though they have rights that they don't when someone is uncooperative.

These examples are covered by the fourth amendment rather than the fifth.

I would go further...an officer sometimes has no right to even SEEM as if he is stopping you, including standing in front of you, or bringing a fellow officer to "surround" you. Officers can ask you for anything, and as long as you do not feel like you are being forced to give it, and feel like you are being clear passage to leave without being stopped, it is legal. Saying, "No" is legal. However, one has to be very careful when exercising their personal rights, just as an officer of the law has to be careful when exercising his lawful rights. One slip and the whole house of cards comes crashing down. Search and seizure seems like it is straightforward, but if the police can cobble together probable cause (even though you know nothing about what that cause might be) they can search.

In your penultimate sentence, I feel like you make a slight leap. It is not that officers act as if they have rights they don't have, but officers using strategies for getting voluntary acquiescence without overstepping their legal bounds for detention, i.e. You were free to not answer and leave at any time, but don't. Many cases, even with known offenders with long histories, have been lost on the simple fact that "being a known criminal" is not a crime itself, even if that might be a gun in your pocket. One such case I know of was exactly that. Officers confronted a known criminal, asked him about a crime. He said he didn't know anything about it. Then, the officer said that looks like a phone in one pocket, but is that a gun in the other? The person said nothing, but dropped his head. The officer took this to mean it was a gun and the perp knew the gig was up, and reached in his pocket and removed the gun. In court, all charges were dropped due to illegal search and seizure, because, other than a fishing expedition, there was no reason to stop the guy other than they felt he might have done the crime or know who did...BECAUSE HE WAS A KNOWN CRIMINAL and not because they had any evidence or reasonable suspicion upon which to make the stop.

The law works both ways, which is why it is imperative to know your own part in it and to restrict your interactions with police authorities to a minimum.

 

[basokla]

Would this get attention if she didn't commit suicide?

Uh, no.

And to think - he was just going to give her a warning.

I guess I must be a total anomaly because I've been pulled over by cops at various times in my life for different traffic violations and whatnot and never had a problem.

But I never:

• went on a rant on how unfair I felt it was being pulled over
• failed to follow a request (like putting out a cigarette)
• uttered the phrase "let's do this" toward an officer

 

[Bigga]

Uh, no.

And to think - he was just going to give her a warning.

I guess I must be a total anomaly because I've been pulled over by cops at various times in my life for different traffic violations and whatnot and never had a problem.

But I never:

• went on a rant on how unfair I felt it was being pulled over
• failed to follow a request (like putting out a cigarette)
• uttered the phrase "let's do this" toward an officer

Good for you, but remember it's not against the law to

a) respond to a question or be unhappy

or

b) smoke in your own car if it has nothing to do with the crime.

Anyway, ChicagoBlue, you must have heard that Officer Tensing has been charged with murder performing a traffic stop.

Here's his body cam vid (be warned some of it may be viewed as 'graphic'):


If he did everything 'right', why is he being charged?

 

[hilts]

Not read this is it worth the time or is it a spurious Bigga race thread

 

[Bigga]

Not read this is it worth the time or is it a spurious Bigga race thread

Depends on whether you want to make it about over zealous cops or White vs Black.

I'll let you be the judgemental asshole in this one.

 

[Metalartin]

Good for you, but remember it's not against the law to

a) respond to a question or be unhappy

or

b) smoke in your own car if it has nothing to do with the crime.

Anyway, ChicagoBlue, you must have heard that Officer Tensing has been charged with murder performing a traffic stop.

Here's his body cam vid (be warned some of it may be viewed as 'graphic'):


If he did everything 'right', why is he being charged?

Wow he just went straight to shooting just because he tried to drive off?

 

[hilts]

Depends on whether you want to make it about over zealous cops or White vs Black.

I'll let you be the judgemental asshole in this one.

Right have just watched the video, cop started off fine no problems, woman did what you should never do to a cop show disdain at his actions, cops the world over hate people not showing them respect, they have a complex about people talking back, she was her own worst enemy and couldn't let it go, two people not willing to back down is all I see, you managed to mention race twice and mysterious suicide in your opening post

A poster less judgemental than me could presume agenda

 

[Bigga]

Right have just watched the video, cop started off fine no problems, woman did what you should never do to a cop show disdain at his actions, cops the world over hate people not showing them respect, they have a complex about people talking back, she was her own worst enemy and couldn't let it go, two people not willing to back down is all I see, you managed to mention race twice and mysterious suicide in your opening post

A poster less judgemental than me could presume agenda

I mentioned it only in the fact that all kinds of things came into play in the video highlighted in the OP. A little sexism, a little racism and a huge amount of bullying. All in my opinion. He uses his position as a cop and as a male to undermine this late female. I happen to see other things that other people that understand see too. You don't and you won't, so you don't get it.

That's fine.

What isn't happening is me making it a racial issue. If I was to make to make it so, I would say, in the second vid, what are the chances of a cop shooting a white man in the head over the same driving issue?

This is about cops being massive dicks, at times. Nothing else.

 

[hilts]

I mentioned it only in the fact that all kinds of things came into play in the video highlighted in the OP. A little sexism, a little racism and a huge amount of bullying. All in my opinion. He uses his position as a cop and as a male to undermine this late female. I happen to see other things that other people that understand see too. You don't and you won't, so you don't get it.

That's fine.

What isn't happening is me making it a racial issue. If I was to make to make it so, I would say, in the second vid, what are the chances of a cop shooting a white man in the head over the same driving issue?

This is about cops being massive dicks, at times. Nothing else.

Don't mention race in your opening post then, not hard really, calling a cop a pussy whether true or not is not the best thing to do, I told a cop once he should really be out catching rapists rather than bothering me, it didn't go well for me