John Stones - 2016/17 performances

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teddykgb said:
tonight Stones went out to cover Sagna's position, searched for midfield help that wasn't arriving, chased the next pass, blocked a cross, then watched as Sagna defended space and watched the ball fizz back into the CB's area for a goal.

I'm convinced that fixing our FBs will have a dramatic impact upon our results. Sagna doesn't do many of the calamitous mistakes that we all notice and remember but when you focus on him he's really quite poor.

And for my praise of Stones there (and I would praise his taking responsibility in the 2nd half), he's still giving way too much ground when players run at him. As I said in the game thread, he doesn't have to do an Otamendi and rush the attacker but he can't allow the attacker the amount of space he does which lets him just chew up 20 or 30 yards at full pace. He should be able to get tighter and force the attackers wider which will give his teammates a chance to get back and help.
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That's a fair summary. Stones is what 21? Compare him at his level of development to Sane and Sterling. Neither are the finished product but have shown that they definitely have the ability to progress to the very top. Decision making and consistency will hopefully be taught/learned and with that they will be superb.

I see Stones at a similar level in his development except he plays CB which is far more punishing for any mistake. Stones has shown he can be very good like last night, but as you rightly point out he has flaws which we can see and hopefully management has him working on them. Strength will come with age and i would love Vinny to take him to the side and teach him how to defend 1 on 1, for as you rightly point out, he doesn't close the gap or marshall the forward effectively. Something Vinny was a master at.

I can see a very good player in Stones, just hope he can fulfill his potential and do it with us. Such a shame that he hasn't had game time with Kompany.
 
Stones was moftm against Monaco , although we conceded three goals the lack of an additional defensive midfielder against the best attacking team in europe and away from home was the main reason for our terrible first half performance , Stones manfully stuck to his job and prevented an absolute total collapse in the 1st half . When KDB decided to contribute in the 2nd half and help Dinho defensivley we looked a different team.
 
He is such a quality player. his only issue is concentration which is causing him to make mistakes, but once he improves he will be world class
 
Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
so aguero missing plenty of chances, other defenders being non existent, the team playing poorly had nothing to do with it, it was all stones fault ?
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No, those are also direct reasons why we are out of he Champions League, possibly including the ref in the first leg not giving the pen. Otamendi's falling asleep & crap challenge for their pen.

But make no mistake, if Stones had been even bang average doing his job v Falcao we would now be through. The fact is, he was shite & it cost us.
 
Neville Kneville said:
But make no mistake, if Stones had been even bang average doing his job v Falcao we would now be through.
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What was the aggregate score over the two legs and what was the score when Falcao scored that goal? What was the score when Stones later finished from a corner? How many goals ahead of Monaco were we by the end of the match? What was the score of the return leg?

To say we would be through if Stones prevented that goal is bullshit. We won that game with Stones directly making up for that error and giving us the lead. The tie was lost in the first 45 minutes of the away leg, it was not lost during a match that we won.
 
super_city_si said:
That's a fair summary. Stones is what 21? Compare him at his level of development to Sane and Sterling. Neither are the finished product but have shown that they definitely have the ability to progress to the very top. Decision making and consistency will hopefully be taught/learned and with that they will be superb.

I see Stones at a similar level in his development except he plays CB which is far more punishing for any mistake. Stones has shown he can be very good like last night, but as you rightly point out he has flaws which we can see and hopefully management has him working on them. Strength will come with age and i would love Vinny to take him to the side and teach him how to defend 1 on 1, for as you rightly point out, he doesn't close the gap or marshall the forward effectively. Something Vinny was a master at.

I can see a very good player in Stones, just hope he can fulfill his potential and do it with us. Such a shame that he hasn't had game time with Kompany.
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He's actually 23 in May but gets treated as if he's 21 because he often plays as if he's 20 . Sane just turned 21 in Jan.

I also see a good player in Stones.

But he isn't one now & half a game of being the best of a bunch of absolute shitbag defenders & midfielders v Monaco, doesn't mean he's turned any corners.

He has to actually start performing like the player he is supposed to be. Today would be a good time to start.
 
Tugay One Cup said:
What was the aggregate score over the two legs and what was the score when Falcao scored that goal? What was the score when Stones later finished from a corner? How many goals ahead of Monaco were we by the end of the match? What was the score of the return leg?

To say we would be through if Stones prevented that goal is bullshit. We won that game with Stones directly making up for that error and giving us the lead. The tie was lost in the first 45 minutes of the away leg, it was not lost during a match that we won.
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We lost due to the away goals.

The worst goals in the tie, were their keeper's error v Aguero & Stones' pathetic, schoolboy, effort v Falcao. If he'd defended that as he will have been taught, when he was ten, we would still be in it. But he had to be clever & we are out. Actually scoring one of the ten easy chances he's had from a corner, is not a get out for not doing his job.
 
Neville Kneville said:
We lost due to the away goals.

The worst goals in the tie, were their keeper's error v Aguero & Stones' pathetic, schoolboy, effort v Falcao. If he'd defended that as he will have been taught, when he was ten, we would still be in it. But he had to be clever & we are out. Actually scoring one of the ten easy chances he's had from a corner, is not a get out for not doing his job.
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No, I completely agree that it doesn't let him off the hook but placing the blame for our exit squarely at his feet for his part in their third goal (out of six) is absolutely cat shit insane.

We went out because of attrocious marking from a set piece, that's exactly what happened.
 
With Peps fondness of trying players in various different positions ive always thought he might try Stones as DM he looks to have the attributes for that as im not sure he is going to make it as a top class CB
 
Tugay One Cup said:
No, I completely agree that it doesn't let him off the hook but placing the blame for our exit squarely at his feet for his part in their third goal (out of six) is absolutely cat shit insane.

We went out because of attrocious marking from a set piece, that's exactly what happened.
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Monaco knew, from our pathetic first leg defensive display, that if they went for us, they could quickly get back two goals & win on away goals. We knew it too.

Three, would have looked too many & Monaco would be playing in a bit of hope, rather than belief. Totally different game, which our wussy shitbag players might have had the balls to turn up for.

Our shite defending in he first leg, caused the 2nd leg.

But let's have a look at the 2nd leg. Striker runs past non existent Kolarov, no cover whatsoever from Stones, great save Willy. No 23 runs past crap attempt from Aguero & Sane, Stones reacts too late (Kolarov still sleeping behind him) throws himself on the floor Otamendi style to block a tame near post shot, & misses the follow up, whilst obscuring the keeper's view (Kolarov still having a nap) Goal.

Stones comes out to right back position, fails to anticipate that this really IS an Otamendi slide in moment where desperate block is needed & the fullback smashes in a cross unopposed. Pathetic defending in centre by Kolarov & Co, goal.

Third goal, ball is played into the centre of our penalty area. One centre back jumps to miss it, the other, is, for some reason, stranded at the far post. The 2nd favourite to win the header, if the first Monaco player doesn't head it, is another Monaco player.

All this on a night when Stones is apparently playing a blinder.
 
Andy Morrisons jock strap said:
With Peps fondness of trying players in various different positions ive always thought he might try Stones as DM he looks to have the attributes for that as im not sure he is going to make it as a top class CB
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Otamendi imo, produces more quality direct pases to the strikers than Stones does & I wouldn't mind seeing either of them tried there.

Pep doesn't like having 'defensive' mids, but it could win us a game especially in a big away leg against a tough attack. (I do think Stones will make it, incidentally but right now he isn't 'it')
 
Neville Kneville said:
Monaco knew, from our pathetic first leg defensive display, that if they went for us, they could quickly get back two goals & win on away goals. We knew it too.

Three, would have looked too many & Monaco would be playing in a bit of hope, rather than belief. Totally different game, which our wussy shitbag players might have had the balls to turn up for.

Our shite defending in he first leg, caused the 2nd leg.

But let's have a look at the 2nd leg. Striker runs past non existent Kolarov, no cover whatsoever from Stones, great save Willy. No 23 runs past crap attempt from Aguero & Sane, Stones reacts too late (Kolarov still sleeping behind him) throws himself on the floor Otamendi style to block a tame near post shot, & misses the follow up, whilst obscuring the keeper's view (Kolarov still having a nap) Goal.

Stones comes out to right back position, fails to anticipate that this really IS an Otamendi slide in moment where desperate block is needed & the fullback smashes in a cross unopposed. Pathetic defending in centre by Kolarov & Co, goal.

Third goal, ball is played into the centre of our penalty area. One centre back jumps to miss it, the other, is, for some reason, stranded at the far post. The 2nd favourite to win the header, if the first Monaco player doesn't head it, is another Monaco player.

All this on a night when Stones is apparently playing a blinder.
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That first attempt was in no way Stones' fault, Dinho gets caught napping, Kolarov jumps out of Mbappe's way and John simply can't make up the ground in time to cover his brain fart of a centre back partner. Should we now slag him off for not being as fast as Mbappe?

The first goal he did well to block the cross ("tame cross" is bullshit revisionism seeing as it had to be blocked because it was fizzed at four Monaco player waiting) , takes a while to get back up as Mendy lands on him, doesn't recover in time and the marking in the middle let's us down.

Second goal he gets left to deal with two players and Raheem doesn't even bother staying goal side of Fabinho.

Third goal is just an absolute shambles from everyone involved.

Fair enough if you expect better, I'm not sure anyone would disagree, but the disproportionate blame laid at his feet by you is rather unfortunate.
 
Tugay One Cup said:
That first attempt was in no way Stones' fault, Dinho gets caught napping, Kolarov jumps out of Mbappe's way and John simply can't make up the ground in time to cover his brain fart of a centre back partner. Should we now slag him off for not being as fast as Mbappe?

The first goal he did well to block the cross ("tame cross" is bullshit revisionism seeing as it had to be blocked because it was fizzed at four Monaco player waiting) , takes a while to get back up as Mendy lands on him, doesn't recover in time and the marking in the middle let's us down.

Second goal he gets left to deal with two players and Raheem doesn't even bother staying goal side of Fabinho.

Third goal is just an absolute shambles from everyone involved.

Fair enough if you expect better, I'm not sure anyone would disagree, but the disproportionate blame laid at his feet by you is rather unfortunate.
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People in this thread, are saying that game is an example of Stones 'stepping up'.

He was shite, same as the rest, is my point. And he was shite in the first leg as well.

And imo, that first attempt, where nobody is covering shitty Kolarov after a mid gets caught napping, is precisely why we are shit at defending. 1: nobdy expects it. 2: nobody can do anything, even if they do expect it as we don't have a single defender with genuine pace.
 
Neville Kneville said:
Otamendi imo, produces more quality direct pases to the strikers than Stones does & I wouldn't mind seeing either of them tried there.

Pep doesn't like having 'defensive' mids, but it could win us a game especially in a big away leg against a tough attack. (I do think Stones will make it, incidentally but right now he isn't 'it')
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Agree. Ota is a fwd thinking defender and is more than comfortable bringing it out than Stones. For me, atm, Stones is too risk averse and inevitably always looks for the back or sideways pass.
 
mosssideblue said:
Agree. Ota is a fwd thinking defender and is more than comfortable bringing it out than Stones. For me, atm, Stones is too risk averse and inevitably always looks for the back or sideways pass.
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Absolutely. He wants to live up to his rep of being a great passer/breaking the lines etc, but half the time he can't see a pass or pick the moment to go, so he plays it safe & when he overthinks it, he underhits one back at he keeper, sidways or just passes to the oppo.

When the game is going well, his confidence grows & he starts to show more quality.
 
Neville Kneville said:
People in this thread, are saying that game is an example of Stones 'stepping up'.

He was shite, same as the rest, is my point. And he was shite in the first leg as well.

And imo, that first attempt, where nobody is covering shitty Kolarov after a mid gets caught napping, is precisely why we are shit at defending. 1: nobdy expects it. 2: nobody can do anything, even if they do expect it as we don't have a single defender with genuine pace.
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Imo he did step up in that he was our best player and the only one who looked willing to fight. Like I said, not the best performance (not even his best for us) but at least he showed a bit of bottle.

The second point I agree with to an extent but you can't expect us to be able to stop every chance for the opposition we bring on ourselves by making two absolutely amateur mistakes in the centre of our own defensive third. Sometimes you can get away with it but at CL level it usually takes one such error to concede a goal.

Ideally we can make up for every single mistake made but we're talking about the best teams in Europe who punish single mistakes, not playing in the Premier League, having our captain fall over on the halfway line and allowing Demba Ba to do his best Moses impression.

Neville Kneville said:
What happened to that theory we only let in goals with a back 3 by the way ?
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But I'm sure Robbie Savage said it was true.
 
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