Post Match Thread: Election 2017

[andyhinch]

They don't appear to be doing anything illegal now so I can't think of grounds to stop them.

I don't think their policies have a place in a modern United Kingdom though.

Genuine question mate, if the electorate thought voting tory could give the DUP a controlling interest in our government they would have still won ?

 

[SWP's back]

Genuine question mate, if the electorate thought voting tory could give the DUP a controlling interest in our government they would have still won ?

I've no idea mate. Depends how much say they have.

The flip side works as well though, I know Labour voters that wouldn't want the SNP to have a controlling interest etc.

 

[1961_vintage]

Genuine question mate, if the electorate thought voting tory could give the DUP a controlling interest in our government they would have still won ?

Never. Never. Never!

 

[Vic]

Labour aren't currently in Government because, in descending order:

The Tories managed to make the terrorist sympathiser label stick.

The Garden Tax was badly communicated.

People didn't like or trust his policy on nuclear weapons or the military.

John McDonnell has made some very scary comments for a Chancellor to be.

Diane Abbott exists and went all Diane Abbott about things.

I can't have ifs and buts about what happened in 1997 because we can speculate all day long. What we do know is that Tony et al knew that you cant win an election by appealing onto to unionists, hard socialists and students. You have to appeal to aspirational middle classes; the type that Corbyn struggled with in the polls and on election night. New Labour project was a great modernisation project for the Party and I think you're underselling it a bit.

As I've said previously, I like Jeremy. I voted for him twice as leader and hoped that he could win. But I don't see how he could win South West Wales, or those battlegrounds like Derbyshire or East Anglia. In fact I'd like someone to explain the strategy for winning them. Especially as the Tories have seen the light on hard Brexit after the results which boosted Labour's numbers this time round.

It would be absolutely fantastic if we could have a far left Government. As you know from our previous conversations, my politics puts me as a far left globalist federalist. The difference between me and these fucks though, is that I understand thatvforming a Labour government is more important than forming an ideologically perfect government. And despite all the hype, in the cold light of day when you look at the results and a seat count, then YET AGAIN the country didn't vote for it. Because it never does. It's always ifs, buts and maybe, like Labour are some sort of youth academy where the golden era is always two seasons away.

It's a weird time to be talking about Corbyn potentially acting as kingmaker as the country is so unsettled. Shit, if we had another election next week he'd probably sneak it but we're not going to have another election next week and potentially not for 5 years. Even the Tories aren't incompetent enough to call an election when they're behind in the polls.

Maybe Lewis. Could potentially move the Party back to the centre albeit only a bit, and would keep the Momentum lot fairly happy. I actually think Tom Watson would have won that election and he's a cool guy who would hit the youth vote. If we're sticking with the far left then it HAS to be Richard Burgon from Leeds who speaks impressively well and plays in a rock band. And when I say impressively well, I mean like a goddamn cult leader. He's mesmerising. With the Corbyn nod, if we're to run on a socialist platform then he would carry the most legitimacy to swing voters.

Think its too early to tell.

The strategy going forward is clear though - we have to attack Scotland. That's the best chance of a socialist Labour Government. Presuming most of Manchester and London will go along with it, which is a safe bet.

We've still got to win the Shires though. And I don't know how.

Same with Devon and Cornwall. It used to be Lib Dems land before they modernised, so I dunno maybe there's some potential in roads there.

I still can't get us to 326 though. Neither can the Momentum lot by the way, they just don't care though.

You voted for Corbyn as leader - twice? I'm flummoxed! How can you have voted for Corbyn and now be complaining that Corbyn-led Labour has failed the poor whereas under another leader with more New Labourish policies we'd have won?

 

[law74]

What in your opinion was the cause

The same reason why every single election in history is lost - the Party didn't convince the electorate about their viability to firm a Government[/QUOTE]

So how much (if any) of the blame for this would you place on Hilary Benn, Stephen Kinnock, Tom Watson, Andrea Eagle et al who continually undermined and plotted against their democratically elected party leader?
How is sitting on your hands and abstaining on an extreme austerity budget when sitting on the opposition benches helping either the poorest in our society or the parties image as a government in waiting?
Labour now need to unite behind Corbyn and ensure that this minority government are held to account at every stage on every level, & be ready to go into full election campaigning mode at a minutes notice as there is a very real chance of another GE within a year and Labour CAN and I would say MUST win for the good of the nation.
The Barclay brothers, Rothermere Murdoch etc tried their damnest to destroy the opposition in this election, that they failed so drastically shows that they no longer have the power they used to have.
The left have the momentum and we need to keep it going, keep building on it and keep increasing.

 

[Vic]

I've no idea mate. Depends how much say they have.

The flip side works as well though, I know Labour voters that wouldn't want the SNP to have a controlling interest etc.

Surely anyone voting Labour must have known they were voting for a coalition of chaos?

 

[Vic]

The same reason why every single election in history is lost - the Party didn't convince the electorate about their viability to firm a Government

So how much (if any) of the blame for this would you place on Hilary Benn, Stephen Kinnock, Tom Watson, Andrea Eagle et al who continually undermined and plotted against their democratically elected party leader?
How is sitting on your hands and abstaining on an extreme austerity budget when sitting on the opposition benches helping either the poorest in our society or the parties image as a government in waiting?
Labour now need to unite behind Corbyn and ensure that this minority government are held to account at every stage on every level, & be ready to go into full election campaigning mode at a minutes notice as there is a very real chance of another GE within a year and Labour CAN and I would say MUST win for the good of the nation.
The Barclay brothers, Rothermere Murdoch etc tried their damnest to destroy the opposition in this election, that they failed so drastically shows that they no longer have the power they used to have.
The left have the momentum and we need to keep it going, keep building on it and keep increasing.[/QUOTE]

Within the year? Middle of July is still a possibility.

 

[law74]

@Vic
I don't think we would have a GE in the middle of the summer recess as the electoral commission couldn't cope with the demand for postal votes from people going on holidays etc, though with Brexit negotiations starting, we need SOMEONE there (possibly a cross party delegation based on numbers of MPs), but traditionally we don't go to the polls when the schools are closed for 6 weeks.

 

[jay_mcfc]

If there's a GE within two years Labour would win it by a majority. Momentum is a real thing.

 

[Vic]

@Vic
I don't think we would have a GE in the middle of the summer recess as the electoral commission couldn't cope with the demand for postal votes from people going on holidays etc, though with Brexit negotiations starting, we need SOMEONE there (possibly a cross party delegation based on numbers of MPs), but traditionally we don't go to the polls when the schools are closed for 6 weeks.

What if the Queen's Speech is rejected?
Would there be any leeway in the 25 days to a new election?
If the speech includes the words certainty or stability I could imagine it would be the first time in a long time that the Most Gracious Speech was met by laughter.

 

[urban genie]

Cannot believe the question over whether new labour was tory lite is still being discussed, they were not right wing tories, but they were not socialist of the left wing or center left, they were a center right neoliberal continuation of policies and ideas forged by reagan and thatcher in the 80's with a more social democratic conscience.

New labour policies that were more tory than labour

• Deregulation of the financial sector
• Refusal to renationalise or even effectively regulate the privatised utilities companies
• The use of PFIs and kick-starting the privatisation of the NHS
• Turning a blind eye to the rampant tax-dodging of multi-national corporations and the super rich minority
• The development of a vast housing Ponzi bubble built on unsustainable levels of debt accumulation. alongside a seemingly refusal to invest in much needed social housing and dissinterest to regulate the Buy-to-Let slumlords
• The introduction of "Workfare" schemes.
• The Privatisation of air traffic control,
• Corporate outsourcing contracts including the Prison service
• Kick starting the privatisation of the education system and academies
• Introducing the ATOS administered WCA regime for the disabled
• The Digital Economy Act.
• Revocation of the right to trial by jury and other attacks on the justice system
• The sale and leaseback of the tax collection authority property portfolio to Mapeley Steps

New Labour policies that were Socialist or more core Labour

• Minimum wage
• Working tax credits
• opening of more NHS drop in centers
• Sure Start centres
• free nursery education

None of this matters though, Labour members have decided at present that they don't want the progress group of the party to shape it's future as it did under new labour and what was a chapter in labours history is over.

 

[blueinsa]

So Downing Street releases news that an agreement has been reached with the DUP yet today the DUP says no deal has been done.

Inept and devoid of leadership best describes this government.

 

[urban genie]

So Downing Street releases news that an agreement has been reached with the DUP yet today the DUP says no deal has been done.

Inept and devoid of leadership best describes this government.

The DUP cannot even agree to form a government in Norn, so to think they would agree in one night was presumptious by may and the tories agiain.

 

[blueinsa]

The DUP cannot even agree to form a government in Norn, so to think they would agree in one night was presumptious by may and the tories agiain.

Does she not realise the trouble that will erupt in N.I. if a deal like this is made?

Is she really that fucking stupid because i get she is desperate but fuck me?

 

[Damocles]

You voted for Corbyn as leader - twice? I'm flummoxed! How can you have voted for Corbyn and now be complaining that Corbyn-led Labour has failed the poor whereas under another leader with more New Labourish policies we'd have won?

I know you're flummoxed. The fact that political pragmatism is to some people just unfathomable is really very sad

• I want a Labour Government, no matter what.
• At the leadership election, Corbyn represented the best chance of that. Twice.
• He lost by 60 seats.
• My anger is at the ideologues in the Party who refused to compromise their political positions to make voting Labour more palatable to non-traditional Labour voters.

 

[urban genie]

Alister Campbell going full guns on bbc breakfast, laying into the media, may and her complete fuck up, but also that labour need to now get together and work together

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Does she not realise the trouble that will erupt in N.I. if a deal like this is made?

Is she really that fucking stupid because i get she is desperate but fuck me?

She's doing like all the fuckers, loving power and will do anything to stay there.

 

[the god Gerry Gow]

Alister Campbell going full guns on bbc breakfast, laying into the media, may and her complete fuck up, but also that labour need to now get together and work together

Another one with short memories and a lack of an embarrassment gene.

Anybody asked him where the wmd's are yet

 

[law74]

Does she not realise the trouble that will erupt in N.I. if a deal like this is made?

Is she really that fucking stupid because i get she is desperate but fuck me?

A lot here could depend on the DUPs demands and what is agreed.
If there is a guarantee not to prosecute Soldiers and policeman that served in Northern Ireland or about marching legislation then the shinners will be apoplectic and this could lead to a rapid rise in the numbers of dissident attacks.
However, if they get more money for schools, hospitals, roads and a cut in airport taxes to boost tourism here, then there would be nothing the shinners could moan about.
All VERY interesting

 

[Damocles]

So how much (if any) of the blame for this would you place on Hilary Benn, Stephen Kinnock, Tom Watson, Andrea Eagle et al who continually undermined and plotted against their democratically elected party leader?
How is sitting on your hands and abstaining on an extreme austerity budget when sitting on the opposition benches helping either the poorest in our society or the parties image as a government in waiting?
Labour now need to unite behind Corbyn and ensure that this minority government are held to account at every stage on every level, & be ready to go into full election campaigning mode at a minutes notice as there is a very real chance of another GE within a year and Labour CAN and I would say MUST win for the good of the nation.
The Barclay brothers, Rothermere Murdoch etc tried their damnest to destroy the opposition in this election, that they failed so drastically shows that they no longer have the power they used to have.
The left have the momentum and we need to keep it going, keep building on it and keep increasing.

I agree with that, and you can go back and see how furious I was at the PLP for undermining Corbyn. Because it meant less chance of a Labour Government. And I want a Labour Government because without one nobody gets helped.

This isn't rocket science. I want New Labour because it's the most electable version of Labour and every time they've moved away from it they've lost the election.

Everybody is talking about the bright new socialist future, but if you actually ask them what seats they are going to turn that are traditionally Blue there's not many there. They can't get to 326. And if they can't then they may as well run on a platform of a free Angelina Jolie for every teenage boy bevause they can't get into power.

In Opposition, Labour can do 0% good and only prevent the Government from doing bad.

In Government, even if they can only do 20% good, and try to do very little bad.

20% is better than 0%.

It's political greed to refuse to be pragmatic.