Post Match Thread: Election 2017

[blueinsa]

It was you that mentioned pensions in response to my post but you don't want to talk about them? You can't have it both ways.

Only because i answered Chippy and then you picked up on it......

I did however answer how i feel the extra tax revenue will benefit society as a whole.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Why not buy some shares? Just a thought.

I don't accept for one moment this "ripping off the general public" line. It's easy words to throw in, with zero evidence. But even if they had, where do you think the profits go? Into share dividends for your and my pension is where these profits go.

Any surplus funds in an economy the state ours was in should be invested in government bonds not shares. Shares just move money around. You buy a share and you're recompensing the seller, not investing in a company that wants to use the money. In a recession, companies hold back on investment so governments have ot pick up the slack.

There's plenty of evidence to support the notion that companies aren't investing, including the failure of productivity to grow. Growth so far has been propelled by consumer spending not corporate investment. Your solution would take even that out of the equation, like Cameron (who astoundingly got a First in PPE) telling people to pay their credit card debts off first before spending on other things.

There is an inexorable economic link between saving and investing. If people are doing the former, then the latter doesn't happen and it's the latter that drives real and meaningful growth.

 

[sir baconface]

Yes a lot of people do have private pensions, mine as an example I will have to live to 115 years old to get back what has been paid in.

Really? Did you buy it from a Nigerian colonel?

 

[jonmcity]

Really? Did you buy it from a Nigerian colonel?

looks like it.

 

[robbieh]

Capitalism has a few flaws one of which is this. Workers produce wealth but they are also customers. If their collective wages are too low they can't buy the produce they have produced. This situation can be managed by going into debt in order to buy the produce. But it is not a viable long term solution. And only benefits the financiers until such time as the debt cannot be met. Cue meltdown.

 

[jonmcity]

Capitalism has a few flaws one of which is this. Workers produce wealth but they are also customers. If their collective wages are too low they can't buy the produce they have produced. This situation can be managed by going into debt in order to buy the produce. But it is not a viable long term solution. And only benefits the financiers until such time as the debt cannot be met. Cue meltdown.

Spot on, and why we need to tax the financiers in order to try and share the funds with the many.

 

[blueinsa]

Capitalism has a few flaws one of which is this. Workers produce wealth but they are also customers. If their collective wages are too low they can't buy the produce they have produced. This situation can be managed by going into debt in order to buy the produce. But it is not a viable long term solution. And only benefits the financiers until such time as the debt cannot be met. Cue meltdown.

Nailed it.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Only because i answered Chippy and then you picked up on it......

I did however answer how i feel the extra tax revenue will benefit society as a whole.

Well it would if there was any. Corporation tax receipts may well go down. The tax take from the raising of the top rate would likely generate less money as well, as extensive studies drawing data from around the globe, not to mention our actual experience of doing it, proved.

Nice idea. Tried it. Doesn't work. QED.

 

[blueinsa]

Corporation tax receipts may well go down.

No they wont because no one believes the threat of them moving away anymore because there is far too much money to be made in this country.

Have you seen corporation tax levels elsewhere?

 

[Damocles]

Doesn't seems to be a problem in Canterbury and Kensington plus others which were won.
Fortunately we are moving away from the back end of the middle of the road Labour guff that Tony Blair was pushing,
He was good at the start and stuck to the core Labour policy but slowly his Thatcher wet dream emerged and damaged the party for a long time.

No you are not, far from it but you are so far detached from the core Labour policies you have no idea what you are spouting. Why exactly are you in the Labour party? What you have written would see someone opposed to the currently useless NEC banned from the party as was seen by many people who were barred from voting in that leadership campaign. That by way, was the most vicious and counter-effective campaign against one person seen anywhere for a long long time. The absolute shite them and the PLP pulled made this campaign as difficult as anything the press pulled. It was a horrendous attack on any form of a fair election. The fact that Owen Smith was blown out of the water showed the NEC and PLP are as removed from reality as they are from the membership. You think for half a second Owen Smith would have won this election? Dont make me laugh. With friends like you nobody needs enemies, whoever they are. Blairism is firmly dead.
Then a couple of paragraphs of bollocks to try and justified such as misshaped view.



Never believe your own shite, you are nothing to do with left and are fucking useless.
If you want to be involved in some party that wants to ver from left to right go and form one, dont worry, you will be leader and it will be you in it.



Without a shadow of a doubt by the end he was. As has been said many times



You forgot number 1 by a mile, the needless waste of a year by fuckwits who didn't their own way and actively tried to sabotage Corbyn and directly shell the party and put them on the lowest ratings ever. Something the media have been happy to exploit ever since. To come back from that back stabbing, of which Tom Watson is one of the king snakes, was a superb effort and it is that, that people are pleased about. Once Corbyn could get on with doing what was needed to shred this weak and terrorist loving government, the figure show he had a better swing in voting than Tony Thatcher. You only have to watch this video to see that the rank and file middle of the roaders, literally have no idea what is going on and more than a few need to publically apologise. Fair play to Owen Smith for doing that.

[MEDIA]=facebook541542416236667[/MEDIA]


There would be far far less than 200 seats for Labour if they had not fought back on the social media.

You are clearly upset that Labour lost the election we all are, however, you seemed twice as pained to see Labour (or rather more specifically Corbyn) have come out of the campaign on a far stronger footing. Always remember, once a scab, always a scab ;)



It has been a hard week for him realising all that he thought was right about the Labour has been pulled apart, both within and without of the party.

All you non Labour members are starting to see the nastiness of the Momentum lot now. This is the third of them who has told me to leave the Party for not supporting their political position.

They want ideological purity and it's why they'll never win an election. They hate the middle class. They hate all of you. Len, Ken fumble - they're the types who feel empowered by this losing result and wouldn't piss on the middle classes if they were on fire. You only have to read their posts on here for the last few years .

On the plus side my councillor has just asked me if I'd be interested in getting more involved in the local CLP. So the local Party want me more involved and the Momentum lot want to kick me out for trying to win elections. Funny that. Might join Progress too, they seem to want to try and win.

 

[Damocles]

Careful, people have been thread banned for less.
So by your reasoning we should elect a tory lite labour govt that will also do fuck all for the needy. You are scared of change and scared to back your convictions so you moan about the left being cruel because we want a better social system. You are a pathetic specimen. Guess what einstein, there is only one way to get that system and it's the one you deride and say is cruel.
You need to have a think before posting more confused ramblings, in fact, dont bother replying to me, you are an ego driven, look at me moron, worse than a tory.

I don't say the left is cruel, I say the hard left who promise the vulnerable help and then go to an election knowing their policies aren't going to win are cruel.

You and all your knobheads keep calling me a Tory like this is a some sort of insult. You think a Tory is beneath you morally. This is yet another reason why you'll never win an election - because you hate 40% of the electorate and they know this too.

Turns out you can't constantly insult people then come round to an election and ask them to vote for you.

And those New Labour governments have done more for the needy than every socialist in the past quarter of a century put together. Because they were in Government and not a coffee shop.

So you hate the Tories, you hate the centre and the moderates and you hate the centre left. Who is it you feel you're going to win the election with?

 

[BlueHammer85]

All you non Labour members are starting to see the nastiness of the Momentum lot now. This is the third of them who has told me to leave the Party for not supporting their political position.

They want ideological purity and it's why they'll never win an election. They hate the middle class. They hate all of you. Len, Ken fumble - they're the types who feel empowered by this losing result and wouldn't piss on the middle classes if they were on fire. You only have to read their posts on here for the last few years .

On the plus side my councillor has just asked me if I'd be interested in getting more involved in the local CLP. So the local Party want me more involved and the Momentum lot want to kick me out for trying to win elections. Funny that. Might join Progress too, they seem to want to try and win.

All your doing on here though is putting Labour voters down for being optimistic, the total opposite I guess when you away from this forum.

 

[west didsblue]

All you non Labour members are starting to see the nastiness of the Momentum lot now. This is the third of them who has told me to leave the Party for not supporting their political position.

They want ideological purity and it's why they'll never win an election. They hate the middle class. They hate all of you. Len, Ken fumble - they're the types who feel empowered by this losing result and wouldn't piss on the middle classes if they were on fire. You only have to read their posts on here for the last few years .

On the plus side my councillor has just asked me if I'd be interested in getting more involved in the local CLP. So the local Party want me more involved and the Momentum lot want to kick me out for trying to win elections. Funny that. Might join Progress too, they seem to want to try and win.

The irony is half the momentum lot weren't even Labour Party members a year or two ago. Many used to be in the likes of the SWP or TUSC or other far left outfits and only joined the Labour Party because of the move to the left. Now they've got the nerve to tell long standing Labour members who don't agree with them to piss off.

 

[robbieh]

I don't say the left is cruel, I say the hard left who promise the vulnerable help and then go to an election knowing their policies aren't going to win are cruel.

You and all your knobheads keep calling me a Tory like this is a some sort of insult. You think a Tory is beneath you morally. This is yet another reason why you'll never win an election - because you hate 40% of the electorate and they know this too.

Turns out you can't constantly insult people then cone round to an election and ask them to vote for you.

So you hate the Tories, you hate the centre and the moderates and you hate the centre left. Who is it you feel you're going to win the election with?

I think the reality is just as the world moved to the right 35 years ago and took the centre with it there is a realignment going on.
And to be honest it is the only way capitalism survives in the long term.
Anything less and things would get ugly.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

I was commenting on the present NEC who were happy to cast people out, including fully paid up members on tenuous reasons, it was NOT Momentum.
The hostile position did not come from me, i merely responded to it. It will take it then, you are ok with hostile positions, as long as they agree with your views. It is a broad church and i have no problems with it.

You questioned the posters choice of being in the party. I actually agree with you that it is time to get behind Corbyn, including his critics in the party. The manifesto was radical but I could buy into most of it. The momentum people have also to real it in if unity is to prevail. From my reading you are more interested in 'told you so' than in unity. As for the other poster I understand his position but disagree with his position. If we have another election soon I believe our radical agenda could get popular backing. But if we do not get power then the experiment has failed.

 

[Damocles]

All your doing on here though is putting Labour voters down for being optimistic, the total opposite I guess when you away from this forum.

I'm putting Labour voters down for celebrating when they should be angry. We lost and now there's potentially 5 more years of austerity. The people who needed us to win this time around have been let down. That's just the reality of losing.

As mentioned, I did a decent amount of campaigning in this election in not just my own but a few neighbouring places too.

When I was door knocking, do you know what was a common thing I heard in this traditionally Labour working class areas? "I don't think any political party gives a shit about me and my family". It broke me heart a bit that - that many people on the lower end of the scale didn't know that traditionally Labour try to help them. When I ask them why they think that, their common answer was that because all the politics types - not just the MPs but the members aswell, hate each other more than they care about us.

And they're right, most of them do. And this should change. And we should be constantly reminding ourselves that that's who we're supposed to be working for and that's who we have a duty to set out electable positions for.

Give you an example. I think it would be great if we turned the EU into one big country. That would be smashing to me. I also want a well funded education system and police force in run down areas. I can't get the second thing if I campaign to the electorate with the first thing in my manifesto. So even if it's something that Id like to happen, I don't put it in there because the people who really need good schools are relying on me to get into power and make it happen, so tossing myself off on my dream policies is arrogance. The electorate don't want the first one and will vote against any manifesto with it in it.

Do you see now? Do you see the problem with these extremists celebrating their massive loss As some sort of win?

 

[Chippy_boy]

No they wont because no one believes the threat of them moving away anymore because there is far too much money to be made in this country.

Have you seen corporation tax levels elsewhere?

Are you referring to the 12.5% in Ireland, or the 9% in Hungary?

Or perhaps the European average of 19.7%? Or the EU average of 21.5%?

Big corporations structure their affairs to minimise their tax liabilities. The is an unfortunate truth, and although we might really try to change that, it's an ongoing battle. The only people lumbered with it, would be the smaller, domestic only employers. So punish the small businesses and favour the great big fat ones. Brilliant idea.

 

[blueinsa]

Are you referring to the 12.5% in Ireland, or the 9% in Hungary?

Or perhaps the European average of 19.7%? Or the EU average of 21.5%?

Big corporations structure their affairs to minimise their tax liabilities. The is an unfortunate truth, and although we might really try to change that, it's an ongoing battle. The only people lumbered with it, would be the smaller, domestic only employers. So punish the small businesses and favour the great big fat ones. Brilliant idea.

Why aren't Ireland and Hungary the bastions of capitalism then already and financial powerhouses?

You know why but insist on playing games.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

This is a really interesting look at voting patterns from the election. For example the tories gained ground in traditional working class Labour areas and lost ground in affluent areas and vice-versa for Labour. Politics as we always knew it might have gone forever.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...venge-of-remainers-to-upending-class-politics

The same happened int he US half a century or so ago. Prior to that, the Democrats were stronger than the Republicans in the South iirc.

 

[SWP's back]

Your assertion that a more moderate leader would have swept Labour into power is utter bollocks. In fact. I can't believe anyone could believe such tosh.

Labour nearly won because Corbyn energised so many people.

You're very very wrong.

And by your reckoning, the Tories nearly won in Scotland.