Jorginho

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Shaelumstash said:
Brilliant post and sums it up perfectly.

Whether you call it a Defensive Midfielder, a Holding Midfielder, a Pivot, a Regista, a number 6, who gives a fuck? It's the same thing. It's the deepest lying midfielder in a 3 man midfield, with two others playing in front.

..........6........
....8............8

A De Jong or a Makelele or Kanté might be better at winning the ball back and giving it simple, but when you average 70% possession, having a grafter who wins a load of tackles isn't quite so important as having someone who can pass the ball forwards.

Fernandinho is brilliant at reading play and winning the ball back. But he's also great at passing the ball forwards. Gundogan is pretty fucking useless at winning the ball back. But he's absolutely mustard at playing the ball forwards. When he filled in for Fernandinho, no one can tell me we were playing a completley different system. Swapping a "Defensive Midfielder" for a "Regista". Fuck Off. It's exactly the same system, each player has just got different attributes.

People calling for a "new DeJong" have just got no fucking clue what they're talking about. We have the ball 70% of the time, we don't need a player who's main attribute is running around and winning the ball back. We need someone who's comfortable on the ball under pressure, can find a forward pass in to tight areas and can be positionally disciplined. If Pep thinks Jorginho is the man to do that for us, then I trust him. He's not done too bad so far.
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Even i understand that now and tactics have never been my strong point,people are obsessed with getting a new dinho in this window which won't happen,we managed ok when dinho was banned for 3 or 4 games,we adapted easily enough
 
Shaelumstash said:
Brilliant post and sums it up perfectly.

Whether you call it a Defensive Midfielder, a Holding Midfielder, a Pivot, a Regista, a number 6, who gives a fuck? It's the same thing. It's the deepest lying midfielder in a 3 man midfield, with two others playing in front.

..........6........
....8............8

A De Jong or a Makelele or Kanté might be better at winning the ball back and giving it simple, but when you average 70% possession, having a grafter who wins a load of tackles isn't quite so important as having someone who can pass the ball forwards.

Fernandinho is brilliant at reading play and winning the ball back. But he's also great at passing the ball forwards. Gundogan is pretty fucking useless at winning the ball back. But he's absolutely mustard at playing the ball forwards. When he filled in for Fernandinho, no one can tell me we were playing a completley different system. Swapping a "Defensive Midfielder" for a "Regista". Fuck Off. It's exactly the same system, each player has just got different attributes.

People calling for a "new DeJong" have just got no fucking clue what they're talking about. We have the ball 70% of the time, we don't need a player who's main attribute is running around and winning the ball back. We need someone who's comfortable on the ball under pressure, can find a forward pass in to tight areas and can be positionally disciplined. If Pep thinks Jorginho is the man to do that for us, then I trust him. He's not done too bad so far.
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I agree with all the terminology BS - midfielders all have a mix of attributes; what they do in possession on the ball from the back or in a very attacking sense, graft and tackling being the key ones that tend to define a player. I don't think it adds anything to any debate if you define a player to a very narrow extent, they can all play different roles when asked. Fdinho was a #10 for most of his pre City career.

RE the possession and how that impacts what you need. I disagree with that assessment. If you have 70+ % possession you still have defending to do and it is likely to be on the break. If you don't have a very mobile defense and a midfielder who can disrupt a break by putting in a key challenge then you will concede goals. See the 2016/17 season with Yaya in DM for plenty of examples of getting done when your midfield is dominant but they don't have the legs to deal with a break.
 
Gaudion M said:
I agree with all the terminology BS - midfielders all have a mix of attributes; what they do in possession on the ball from the back or in a very attacking sense, graft and tackling being the key ones that tend to define a player. I don't think it adds anything to any debate if you define a player to a very narrow extent, they can all play different roles when asked. Fdinho was a #10 for most of his pre City career.

RE the possession and how that impacts what you need. I disagree with that assessment. If you have 70+ % possession you still have defending to do and it is likely to be on the break. If you don't have a very mobile defense and a midfielder who can disrupt a break by putting in a key challenge then you will concede goals. See the 2016/17 season with Yaya in DM for plenty of examples of getting done when your midfield is dominant but they don't have the legs to deal with a break.
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One thing we did this year was stop counter attacks,pep talked about it on the MNF,we have really solved that problem in most of the games,no team will ever stop every counter attack though but we have done pretty well,a few of the goals we conceded were individual errors and switching off thinking the job was done(2 goals we gifted stoke)
 
Gaudion M said:
I agree with all the terminology BS - midfielders all have a mix of attributes; what they do in possession on the ball from the back or in a very attacking sense, graft and tackling being the key ones that tend to define a player. I don't think it adds anything to any debate if you define a player to a very narrow extent, they can all play different roles when asked. Fdinho was a #10 for most of his pre City career.

RE the possession and how that impacts what you need. I disagree with that assessment. If you have 70+ % possession you still have defending to do and it is likely to be on the break. If you don't have a very mobile defense and a midfielder who can disrupt a break by putting in a key challenge then you will concede goals. See the 2016/17 season with Yaya in DM for plenty of examples of getting done when your midfield is dominant but they don't have the legs to deal with a break.
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Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not saying we shouldn't give a toss about the defensive attributes of a player. I'm just saying that when you're Leicester and average 35% possession and play on the counter attack, you need a Defensive Midfielder who'd going to do an awful lot of work without the ball, acting as a screen and keeping you defensively solid.

But if you're Barcelona, you're better off with a Busquets, not the best defensively, but supremely talented on the ball, cool under pressure, great at finding an incisive pass forwards. Put Busquets in Leicester's team and he'd be horrendous. Put DeJong in Barca's team and he'd stand out like a sore thumb for not being good enough on the ball.

I think Pep is looking at Jorginho as a Busquets / Xabi Alonso type player who might not be the quickest or best defensively, but they are so good on the ball that it more than compensates. It remains to be seen whether that will work over a full season in the Prem. Fernandinho has been key for us, he's got a great mix of defensive and ball playing attributes. I can't think of any player in the world who comes close to him for that. Unfortunately the closest could be Fred, I fear with Pep's coaching he could have been the ideal long term replacement for Dinho.

But I guess my point is, I would rather we had a Busquets than a De Jong.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Don't get me wrong mate, I'm not saying we shouldn't give a toss about the defensive attributes of a player. I'm just saying that when you're Leicester and average 35% possession and play on the counter attack, you need a Defensive Midfielder who'd going to do an awful lot of work without the ball, acting as a screen and keeping you defensively solid.

But if you're Barcelona, you're better off with a Busquets, not the best defensively, but supremely talented on the ball, cool under pressure, great at finding an incisive pass forwards. Put Busquets in Leicester's team and he'd be horrendous. Put DeJong in Barca's team and he'd stand out like a sore thumb for not being good enough on the ball.

I think Pep is looking at Jorginho as a Busquets / Xabi Alonso type player who might not be the quickest or best defensively, but they are so good on the ball that it more than compensates. It remains to be seen whether that will work over a full season in the Prem. Fernandinho has been key for us, he's got a great mix of defensive and ball playing attributes. I can't think of any player in the world who comes close to him for that. Unfortunately the closest could be Fred, I fear with Pep's coaching he could have been the ideal long term replacement for Dinho.

But I guess my point is, I would rather we had a Busquets than a De Jong.
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I agree that DeJong was never good enough on the ball or as an allround player to be a top midfielder - although he was one of the best tacklers we have ever had. Barry was the better allround player of the two at the time and he had questionable mobility. We don't need either now. Jorginho is not like either of them and he should add the mobility and energy that we sometimes lack (Gundo is a bit suspect and Fdinho is getting on). I think beyond that we will have to see how he fits in. For all we know he could end up playing RB!
 
Jorginho off on Holiday to Brazil.....

https://www.football-italia.net/122540/‘ancelotti-hasnt-called-jorginho’

Ancelotti hasn't called Jorginho’
By Football Italia staff
Jorginho-1708-ball-epa_10.jpg
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Jorginho’s agent says new Napoli Coach Carlo Ancelotti “hasn't called” his client, and reiterates he’s “waiting for an agreement” with Manchester City.

The Italian international has an offer from the Premier League champions, and his representative is in England waiting to close a deal.

The Partenopei are yet to accept an offer though, as it’s believed they want €50m up-front.

“At the moment he’s a Napoli player,” Joao Santos said, giving an update to Radio Kiss Kiss Napoli.

“If Napoli close things with Manchester City, if they find the deal I’m waiting for, then I’ll take over.

“He [Jorginho] has already given his availability [for a transfer], now we’re just waiting for an agreement between the two clubs. They’re talking now, I hope they can find an agreement.

“Jorginho is the first name on Manchester City’s list, then clearly if they don’t find an agreement with Napoli they’ll move on to someone else, because there will surely be other names too.

“Jorginho hasn’t spoken with [Pep] Guardiola yet because he’s a Napoli player, it wouldn’t be fair, ethically speaking.

“As for Ancelotti, the Coach hasn’t called him, so they haven’t spoken to each other. Now Jorginho will head to Brazil on holiday.

“Everyone says that his style of play isn’t suited to Ancelotti’s way of playing, but we’re calm. I know that Jorginho is an important player and would be useful to any Coach.

“Right now there’s no talk about a renewal, he has two years on his contract and it’s up to Napoli to decide if he’s still useful to the cause.”
 
Gaudion M said:
I agree with all the terminology BS - midfielders all have a mix of attributes; what they do in possession on the ball from the back or in a very attacking sense, graft and tackling being the key ones that tend to define a player. I don't think it adds anything to any debate if you define a player to a very narrow extent, they can all play different roles when asked. Fdinho was a #10 for most of his pre City career.

RE the possession and how that impacts what you need. I disagree with that assessment. If you have 70+ % possession you still have defending to do and it is likely to be on the break. If you don't have a very mobile defense and a midfielder who can disrupt a break by putting in a key challenge then you will concede goals. See the 2016/17 season with Yaya in DM for plenty of examples of getting done when your midfield is dominant but they don't have the legs to deal with a break.
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Some of this is true, but this is where the inverted fullback comes in. Delph is really playing as another central midfielder when we attack by inverting. It's to help out being in the right place when we get countered on. I think if Mendy comes in it will be Walker who inverts. I don't think both will play high. It's all about attacking with 5 and defending with 5. Pep knows this and the team works in training how to break up counter attacks.
 
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