The VW emissions fiasco

[Henkeman]

Just to give a little bit of background on some of this...
I was in a previous life involved in the motor industry and was involved with people who conducted the testing for the economy and mileage figures quoted by motor manufactures in the brochures. Everybody and I mean everybody in the industry has known for years and years that the numbers published in the brochures are complete nonsense. I'll explain why:
When the testing on a vehicle for MPG was conducted the car was effectively stripped back to its bare bones. The wing mirrors and door handles were removed. All of the trim and extras and accessories were removed. The seats were changed for light weight versions along with the tyres etc etc.
Anything and everything that could be slimmed down or removed to reduce weight and wind drag were taken to the absolute extreme.
Therefore the numbers quoted in the brochure are effectively totally fictitious on every level.
As I say EVERYONE in the industry was aware of it. The general public have and are being lied to on a daily basis regarding such issues.
It is a scandal of the highest level but no one appears to give a shit.

The thing there is that the EU authorities allowed them to do all of those "cheats" for the fuel economy tests, so everyone did it and followed the regulations therein. That they were complete nonsense is one thing, but everyone's figures were produced on the same basis, with the arguable exception of Mazda, who made a selling point of trying to produce vaguely realistic results (much good it did them). Whereas the VW diesel scandal was about cheating the system deliberately, not abiding by lax rules.

 

[Bert Trautmanns Helemet]

The thing there is that the EU authorities allowed them to do all of those "cheats" for the fuel economy tests, so everyone did it and followed the regulations therein. That they were complete nonsense is one thing, but everyone's figures were produced on the same basis, with the arguable exception of Mazda, who made a selling point of trying to produce vaguely realistic results (much good it did them). Whereas the VW diesel scandal was about cheating the system deliberately, not abiding by lax rules.

But knowingly falsifying the MPG of a vehicle you are going to buy is also deliberately cheating the system - no?
The MPG of a vehicle is a huge consideration for a lot of people when buying a car.
The brochure says you should on average get 59 miles to the gallon and in reality you only get 39 miles to the gallon because you
have been lied to. The argument that everyone was doing it doesn't stand up. VW were not the only manufacturer to use cheat software on the co2 emissions but that doesn't make it acceptable.

 

[Henkeman]

But knowingly falsifying the MPG of a vehicle you are going to buy is also deliberately cheating the system - no?
The MPG of a vehicle is a huge consideration for a lot of people when buying a car.
The brochure says you should on average get 59 miles to the gallon and in reality you only get 39 miles to the gallon because you
have been lied to. The argument that everyone was doing it doesn't stand up. VW were not the only manufacturer to use cheat software on the co2 emissions but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Oh I'm not arguing with you about it being virtually useless, I'm saying that those were the test stipulations the EU agreed to, so all the taping up off doors, accelerating preposterously slowly and all of that was approved by the regulator. In other words, they abided entirely by the rules as they stood, all of that was permitted - that's not the same as the VW CO2 affair, where they deliberately cheated the regulations.

 

[Bert Trautmanns Helemet]

Oh I'm not arguing with you about it being virtually useless, I'm saying that those were the test stipulations the EU agreed to, so all the taping up off doors, accelerating preposterously slowly and all of that was approved by the regulator. In other words, they abided entirely by the rules as they stood, all of that was permitted - that's not the same as the VW CO2 affair, where they deliberately cheated the regulations.

I think we are on the same page here:
But in my mind just because the authorities knew about the tests and colluded with the manufacturers doesn't mean that the public haven't been and still are being cheated?

 

[Henkeman]

I think we are on the same page here:
But in my mind just because the authorities knew about the tests and colluded with the manufacturers doesn't mean that the public haven't been and still are being cheated?

Exactly, yes.

For the MPG tests, I don't blame the manufacturers, they were abiding by the rules set by the authorities, who knew perfectly well the tests were ridiculous. The public was definitely being lied to about what fuel economy they could expect. Not so sure about the "still are" bit though, in that the new real world testing standards came in late last year - from now on they should be more realistic.

The difference with VW is that they specifically cheated the emissions tests.

 

[Machiavelli]

But knowingly falsifying the MPG of a vehicle you are going to buy is also deliberately cheating the system - no?
The MPG of a vehicle is a huge consideration for a lot of people when buying a car.
The brochure says you should on average get 59 miles to the gallon and in reality you only get 39 miles to the gallon because you
have been lied to. The argument that everyone was doing it doesn't stand up. VW were not the only manufacturer to use cheat software on the co2 emissions but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Aren’t MPG figures just guides dependent on driving style, weather, terrain etc.
You would get more MPG in Amsterdam than say Llanberis due to the hills.

 

[Henkeman]

Aren’t MPG figures just guides dependent on driving style, weather, terrain etc.
You would get more MPG in Amsterdam than say Llanberis due to the hills.

Completely so. But a proper test ought to try and provide a reasonable real world expectation of what should be achievable. The problem with the old test was that so much was allowed that made it hopelessly unrealistic. It became even more out of kilter when you had performance electric hybrids appearing on the scene, where the figures would state something ludicrous like 150mpg as an average, where most owners were getting about 30mpg instead. Hence the reason for the new tests to replace that, it ought to now be more plausible.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Seeing as you know better than the team who wrote the cheat software then we will bow to your superior knowledge.
However, I can tell you for a 100% fact the software was designed to reduce the co2 emissions. Anything else was a side benefit or additional extra.
I can also tell you that the company who wrote the software have already paid 328 million Euros as a fine with a second and possibly larger fine to come. But hey - whatever you say.

No need to be so arsey. It's not a question about me knowing better, it's a question of basic physics. CO2 output from automobiles is a direct consequence of burning fuel, end of.

CO2 output and fuel consumption are measures of the same thing. I can't help it if you didn't know that.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Incidentally the whole system is a complete joke anyway.

First of all, the absolutely ridiculous concept of taxing a vehicle according to how much CO2 it outputs, whilst taking absolutely zero account of how many miles someone drives it.

An 8 litre Hummer which does a nominal 9 mpg uses far less fuel than a Toyota Prius if I leave the the Humvy in the garage and do 100,000 miles a year in the Prius. The sensible way to tax C02 output is to tax fuel, since that's the thing that produces the CO2. Simply owning the car does not.

And then you have the whole issue about how you drive it. Those silly stop-start systems that all cars come with now, which everyone switches off as soon as they get in. They are only fitted so that the manufacturer can come up with fictitious MPG figures which as completely unrealistic. Sure you can get 42 mpg out of your Porsche 911 if you drive it like a nun, but drive it "normally" and it's maybe half that.

The system is a joke.

 

[nmc]

In USA anyone who bought one got compensation, yet in the U.K. they got fuck all, typical rip off. Britain.

Because the US govt prosecuted VW - the U.K. govt didn’t.