VAR (PL introduction 2019)

[Dubai Blue]

i agree it will change the experience but fans will adapt - from what i've seen so far, once VAR has decided the outcome there's more celebrations, in some ways you get to experience the europhia of scoring twice in the space of a few minutes.
Over time it will always improve, as the demand for it to improve will be there - whereas the standard of referring could no longer improve, in fact it was declining, refs could not keep up with the speed of the game and the cleverness of players when it comes to diving - some form of help for the refs HAD to come in.

https://www.football365.com/news/on-the-scourge-of-var-football-should-be-poetry-not-mathematics

This was probably posted when it was first published two weeks ago, but it perfectly sums up my feelings about what we are about to invite into the game. I also understand why people such as yourself want it brought in; we simply appreciate and prioritise two completely different aspects of the game: me, the overall experience; you, the need for all decisions to be right.

"There are two sides in this; those of us who see sport as a beautiful undefined, all-embracing expression of our flawed humanity, and those who see those flaws as a bad thing which must be ironed out with technology. There is no compromising these two polar positions because they are not mere choices, they are expressions of who we are as people, each choice so tightly lashed into our sense of self that to defend it is to defend who you are as person."

I urge you to read the article in full if you haven't already, because it will at least help you see the other side and understand the inherent flaws that people such as myself see in VAR. I don't expect either of us to change our opinions on this, but I will dispute your suggestion that VAR will actually enhance the euphoria of the watching public. As the article says:

"I don’t believe that even the most pro-VAR person is having more fun because of its existence and fun is what football is about, remember? It is not about getting things right at all costs."

Fun is what I value above all else when it comes to watching football. Ultimately, I want to enjoy myself. But my experience of VAR already tells me that my potential for enjoyment is going to be greatly reduced by its presence.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You keep saying this and people keep pointing out that the two scenarios aren't even remotely the same. Yet here you are repeating it once again as though it has any relevance to the point being made.

When a linesman flags to disallow a goal, it's comparatively instantaneous. It also doesn't happen very often. In fact, most of the time, you see the flag go up BEFORE a goal is scored. And, crucially to the point that you chose to sarcastically deride, you still get to celebrate. Yeah, it's gutting on the relatively rare occasions when they get disallowed, but the instinct to celebrate remains.

With VAR, every single goal is affected. A quick glance over at the linesman is no longer enough, because you know that VAR is reviewing each goal and scouring the footage for ANY reason to disallow it. If you don't think that is going to fundamentally change the experience of watching football matches and celebrating goals, then I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.

This is correct, VAR immediately comes into effect each time a goal is scored and immediately, the first response is to
find reasons to disallow it. I was all for VAR, before noticing this feature of it, and now can forsee it being a complete
bloody nuisance, with interminable delays and reviews, which is exactly what we're seeing in the women's World cup.
Martin Samuel has also researched goal numbers per season, and everywhere there's VAR, the numbers drop, which is
not good for the game. There's now no point in cheering a goal, it's going to cause anger in this format.

 

[hammocity]

This is the crux of it for me. That Spurs game should be looked back on as one of the best football matches there's ever been, but my memory of it will always be the ridiculous overuse of VAR and how it sucked the spontaneity out of certain key moments. Felt like you were constantly looking over your shoulder every time a goal went in.

Certain posters on here will inevitably come back with "What's more important – a bit of passion/joy/spontaneity or getting the right result?" Well, for me, it's the passion/joy/spontaneity part. It's literally the reason I fell in love with the game as a kid 35 years ago and why I've been obsessed with it ever since. I grew up in the 80s and 90s FFS, so it certainly had nothing to do with the results!

The nature of football's laws/rules means there's far too much subjectivity involved, and that is fundamentally unsuited to VAR. The only chance it has of working for the better of the game is if its use is strictly limited to objective calls like offside (with daylight) and handball (with this new rule change). Beyond that, we're just swapping one man's opinion for another.

Limited, objective use of VAR plus the introduction of an additional on-field referee (one for each half) could have changed the game for the better in my opinion. But this all-encompassing version of VAR has the potential to change it for the worse. Much worse.

Or to put it another way - it’s fucking shite

 

[blueinsa]

This is correct, VAR immediately comes into effect each time a goal is scored and immediately, the first response is to
find reasons to disallow it. I was all for VAR, before noticing this feature of it, and now can forsee it being a complete
bloody nuisance, with interminable delays and reviews, which is exactly what we're seeing in the women's World cup.
Martin Samuel has also researched goal numbers per season, and everywhere there's VAR, the numbers drop, which is
not good for the game. There's now no point in cheering a goal, it's going to cause anger in this format.

Decades of law changes designed to provide more goals and entertainment which funnily enough has given the game its tv deals and revenue as the world wants to watch it and bang, lets try our best to rule out every single goal scored from now on.

Bonkers.

 

[BertTrautmann'sParachute]

i agree it will change the experience but fans will adapt - from what i've seen so far, once VAR has decided the outcome there's more celebrations, in some ways you get to experience the europhia of scoring twice in the space of a few minutes.
Over time it will always improve, as the demand for it to improve will be there - whereas the standard of referring could no longer improve, in fact it was declining, refs could not keep up with the speed of the game and the cleverness of players when it comes to diving - some form of help for the refs HAD to come in.

I've adapted, I've not renewed for the first time in more than 20 years. I'll be back when VAR goes. In the mean time I'll watch for free on t'internet.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I’ve been a big proponent of VAR but now there’s never going to be the same initial joy of scoring as I’m always always going to be waiting for the review.

The goal against Spurs and feeling afterwards will never be forgotten.

scrap VAR and next season Liverpool score a goal in the last minute miles offside or Salah does a ridiculous dive and wins a penalty, you're ok with that ?

the initial joy of scoring may be hampered but surely that's better than having to put up with above on almost a weekly basis for most games.

where is the ''entertainment'' and ''fun'' when your team has lost that way - fans walk out the stadium pissed off and jump on forums moaning about how the Ref killed the game.

 

[Dubai Blue]

scrap VAR and next season Liverpool score a goal in the last minute miles offside or Salah does a ridiculous dive and wins a penalty, you're ok with that ?

the initial joy of scoring may be hampered but surely that's better than having to put up with above on almost a weekly basis for most games.

Or scrap VAR and City don't have a goal disallowed because someone's big toe is offside.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Or scrap VAR and City don't have a goal disallowed because someone's big toe is offside.

Linos flag for offside when a player isn't offside ! and you're moaning because VAR spots a offside- blame the rules, not VAR

 

[Dubai Blue]

Linos flag for offside when a player isn't offside ! and you're moaning because VAR spots a offside- blame the rules, not VAR

The rules and VAR are intrinsically linked. I wish people would stop trying to separate them. My problem with VAR is that it's inherently unsuited to the laws of football. That isn't going to change with a few tweaks of the rulebook.

 

[cmcm0808]

You never see an offside goal scored on a computer game like FIFA and the correct decision is instant. Couldn’t offside be controlled using similar technology to goal line technology? Surly all it takes is a GPS sensor in the ball each of the player’s boots? That has to be more accurate than expecting the linesman to spot if someone’s toe was offside the moment the ball was played.

 

[Dubai Blue]

You never see an offside goal scored on a computer game like FIFA and the correct decision is instant. Couldn’t offside be controlled using similar technology to goal line technology? Surly all it takes is a GPS sensor in the ball each of the player’s boots? That has to be more accurate than expecting the linesman to spot if someone’s toe was offside the moment the ball was played.

The sensors could detect where the players are in relation to each other, but the real challenge would be detecting when the ball has been played.

But linesman were getting offside decisions right around 95% of the time without VAR. That's good enough for me as I accept some scope for error. It seems to me we're trying to fix something that isn't broken by including offside in the VAR process.

 

[Cheesy]

Every single time a goal is scored my first thought is to wonder if there's any reason for a VAR check.

That wonderful moment when your team score and the uncontrollable, overwhelming & indescribable emotion you feel will be gone :-(

We should get rid of linos aswell.
That moment when they flag after a goal is scored when it is offside after everyone’s celebrating. Sickening. Ruining football. Just let the goal stand so we can enjoy it !

Just not the same, and you know it.

Are you just being deliberately contrary?

 

[hello]

The man handling VAR to detect mms on offside decisions is fucking awful, In the scenarios where the defender and attacker are moving in opposite directions at 3 metres per seconds (very conservative ball park figure, most sprints are between 5mps and 7mps https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327365/)
that's 600cm a second. That's upto 24cm difference in positioning per frame at the 25fps they elected to use, even against a static defender and a forward running at half his fastest speed its upto 12cm difference per frame.
Yet even with the limitation of the technology in use and against the rules of basic physics we are suppose to acknowledge that the super powers of fifa, uefa, fa et al are able to precisely determine when the ball was played and decide which frame to draw a line on indicating someones big toe was 4mm ahead of the defenders arse?

For me they are trying to claim to be infallible and denying the limitations that distance = speed x time doesn't actually apply to football and present an artificial line on a screen that's been determined by opinion not fact as factual. The obvious tweak to make it workable reintroduce clear and obvious errors like the Liverpool west ham game and benefit of doubt to go with the attacking team. An opinion of someone being 4cm offside presented as fact with a margin of error of at least 12cms is plain stupid.

 

[cleavers]

The rules and VAR are intrinsically linked.

Worse, the laws are even being changed to suit VAR.

Decades of law changes designed to provide more goals and entertainment which funnily enough has given the game its tv deals and revenue as the world wants to watch it and bang, lets try our best to rule out every single goal scored from now on.

Bonkers.

Correct.

 

[cleavers]

The man handling VAR to detect mms on offside decisions is fucking awful, In the scenarios where the defender and attacker are moving in opposite directions at 3 metres per seconds (very conservative ball park figure, most sprints are between 5mps and 7mps https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327365/)
that's 600cm a second. That's upto 24cm difference in positioning per frame at the 25fps they elected to use, even against a static defender and a forward running at half his fastest speed its upto 12cm difference per frame.
Yet even with the limitation of the technology in use and against the rules of basic physics we are suppose to acknowledge that the super powers of fifa, uefa, fa et al are able to precisely determine when the ball was played and decide which frame to draw a line on indicating someones big toe was 4mm ahead of the defenders arse?

For me they are trying to claim to be infallible and denying the limitations that distance = speed x time doesn't actually apply to football and present an artificial line on a screen that's been determined by opinion not fact as factual. The obvious tweak to make it workable reintroduce clear and obvious errors like the Liverpool west ham game and benefit of doubt to go with the attacking team. An opinion of someone being 4cm offside presented as fact with a margin of error of at least 12cms is plain stupid.

This is the bit most of those in favour don't seem to get.

I was in favour until I saw it in operation and realised its actually more likely to be wrong now, the human eye is very good, and its far better than the technology used by VAR, even if it occasionally gets things wrong. We thought it would eliminate errors and bias, but in reality it will increase both.

 

[ballinio]

I've adapted, I've not renewed for the first time in more than 20 years. I'll be back when VAR goes. In the mean time I'll watch for free on t'internet.

BTP I, I admire your stand .

 

[hello]

This is the bit most of those in favour don't seem to get.

I was in favour until I saw it in operation and realised its actually more likely to be wrong now, the human eye is very good, and its far better than the technology used by VAR, even if it occasionally gets things wrong. We thought it would eliminate errors and bias, but in reality it will increase both.

I was in favour, and whilst they have butchered many aspects its the offside rulings that go against basic science and yet are presented as fact that have pissed me off the most.

 

[hampshireblue]

The man handling VAR to detect mms on offside decisions is fucking awful, In the scenarios where the defender and attacker are moving in opposite directions at 3 metres per seconds (very conservative ball park figure, most sprints are between 5mps and 7mps https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327365/)
that's 600cm a second. That's upto 24cm difference in positioning per frame at the 25fps they elected to use, even against a static defender and a forward running at half his fastest speed its upto 12cm difference per frame.
Yet even with the limitation of the technology in use and against the rules of basic physics we are suppose to acknowledge that the super powers of fifa, uefa, fa et al are able to precisely determine when the ball was played and decide which frame to draw a line on indicating someones big toe was 4mm ahead of the defenders arse?

For me they are trying to claim to be infallible and denying the limitations that distance = speed x time doesn't actually apply to football and present an artificial line on a screen that's been determined by opinion not fact as factual. The obvious tweak to make it workable reintroduce clear and obvious errors like the Liverpool west ham game and benefit of doubt to go with the attacking team. An opinion of someone being 4cm offside presented as fact with a margin of error of at least 12cms is plain stupid.

Absolutely spot on. And this is just the reason that a simple change to the offside law that if ANY PART of the attacker is level then he is ONSIDE. It makes it easier for all to see and hopefully means more goals and hence more entertainment which after all is why we love the game so much anyway.

 

[Phil1]

The rule of thumb should be that anything that @BlueHammer85 agrees with or believes has merit should be dismissed out of hand.

 

[BertTrautmann'sParachute]

BTP I, I admire your stand .

Thank you. It's broken my heart but after what happened in the CL against Spurs, and what I read on German and Dutch fans forums the following day, my mind was made up.