Another new Brexit thread

[George Hannah]

Nope. Gingers can still fuck off.

Fortunately not all your amis have that attribute, but possibly some good news for those worried about the GFA from the Dáil though
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...says-goverment-1.3951392#.XSSyocPE6_A.twitter

 

[Vic]

I take the sentiment but i think it goes a tad deeper than the off sarcastic press report.

Cameron went cap in hand and basically got sent home with a flea in his ear.

That wasn't a press article and for many in the country possibly the deciding factor come the EU ref.

Its all moot now anyway and we have to move on from the last 3 years as a minimum and find a way out of the situation we now find ourselves in.

"Cameron went cap in hand and basically got sent home with a flea in his ear" is how the anti-EU press spun it.

"Cameron sets UK free from commitment to 'ever closer union'" would have been a more accurate spin. "Britain gets opt-out from foundation principle of the EC and gets special recognition for the pound" would have been a true headline.

At one moment some are saying no-one was influenced by the MailExGraph. You now seem to be saying that their lying spin on this was decisive.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

 

[dave_blue12]

Not sure what relevance it has I'm afraid and of course brexit is now an issue as we have just had 3 years of fighting over a vote we held on our membership.

10 years ago most City fans didn't give a fuck about the CL, a majority now do.

The point is that all the angst over our membership of the EU has been manufactured.
Deal with the source of the division and anti EU feeling will largely disappear.

I do not however hold out much hope of this happening as the propagandists are well resourced and our country is ill equipped to deal.

 

[Rascal]

Corbyn can't deliver a second referendum only because he can't rely on his party to vote for one (or even on himself). Please be in no doubt, the leadership of the Labour Party is composed of openly declared Marxists - 'they really are' - led by Seumas Milne, John McDonnell and Andrew Murray, who is now Corbyn's chief strategic adviser after spending 40 years as chairman of the British Communist Party. They are backed by Len McCluskey, a former enthusiastic supporter of Militant Tendency and still Derek Hatton's best mate. Len's girlfriend Jenny Formby is now General Secretary of the Labour Party after Jon Lansmann, founder of Momentum, withdrew as a candidate on condition she was appointed. The Labour Party is 100% controlled by a Marxist group who consider themselves engaged in a class war and whose primary objective is not the wellbeing of this country or its citizens but the overthrow of the capitalist system.

There really is little point in engaging with you when you believe such wild conspiracy theories.

I have told you before that taking inspiration from Marx does not make you a Marxist just as taking inspiration from Salazar would not make you a Fascist. The Labour party is a democratic organisation and nothing can be done, no manifesto agreed without the members agreement. That of course in your head will mean everyone who is a Labour party member is a Marxist.

There is a huge difference between overthrowing Capitalism and changing Capitalism so it works for everyone not just the few. Of course you will not understand that because of your wild reds under the bed conspiracy nonsense.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Corbyn can't deliver a second referendum only because he can't rely on his party to vote for one (or even on himself). Please be in no doubt, the leadership of the Labour Party is composed of openly declared Marxists - 'they really are' - led by Seumas Milne, John McDonnell and Andrew Murray, who is now Corbyn's chief strategic adviser after spending 40 years as chairman of the British Communist Party. They are backed by Len McCluskey, a former enthusiastic supporter of Militant Tendency and still Derek Hatton's best mate. Len's girlfriend Jenny Formby is now General Secretary of the Labour Party after Jon Lansmann, founder of Momentum, withdrew as a candidate on condition she was appointed. The Labour Party is 100% controlled by a Marxist group who consider themselves engaged in a class war and whose primary objective is not the wellbeing of this country or its citizens but the overthrow of the capitalist system.

Everything that benefits you and your family has been introduced by a bunch of Socialists (and this list is not exhaustive)

• NHS
• Employment Protections
• Youth Opportunities Programme
• State Pension
• Libraries
• Good Friday Agreement
• Weekends
• Annual Holidays
• Sick Pay
• State Education
• Protection of core utilities by nationalisation (Steel / water / Power / Transport etc)
• Council Housing
• Ending the death penalty
• Decriminalisation of Homosexuality
• Paternity Leave
• Legislation against Racism
• The Open University
• Equal Pay Act
• National Minimum Wage
• Devolution in Scotland / Wales & Northern Ireland
• Banned Fox Hunting
• Introduced Free television licences for over 75s
• Sure Start Centres
• Free entry into museums & galleries
• Free Bus Travel for over 60's
• Free eye tests for over 60's
• Civil Partnerships
• Human Rights Act
• The Equality Act
• Cancellation of debt for the worlds poorest countries
• Worlds first Climate Change Act
• Tax Credits
• Repealing Anti Trade Union legislation

Guess which party objected to every single one and to this day attempts to erode your and your children's rights to live your life educated, employed, safe and well?

But hey ......... because Socialism

 

[Vic]

Everything that benefits you and your family has been introduced by a bunch of Socialists (and this list is not exhaustive)

• NHS
• Employment Protections
• Youth Opportunities Programme
• State Pension
• Libraries
• Good Friday Agreement
• Weekends
• Annual Holidays
• Sick Pay
• State Education
• Protection of core utilities by nationalisation (Steel / water / Power / Transport etc)
• Council Housing
• Ending the death penalty
• Decriminalisation of Homosexuality
• Paternity Leave
• Legislation against Racism
• The Open University
• Equal Pay Act
• National Minimum Wage
• Devolution in Scotland / Wales & Northern Ireland
• Banned Fox Hunting
• Introduced Free television licences for over 75s
• Sure Start Centres
• Free entry into museums & galleries
• Free Bus Travel for over 60's
• Free eye tests for over 60's
• Civil Partnerships
• Human Rights Act
• The Equality Act
• Cancellation of debt for the worlds poorest countries
• Worlds first Climate Change Act
• Tax Credits
• Repealing Anti Trade Union legislation

Guess which party objected to every single one and to this day attempts to erode your and your children's rights to live your life educated, employed, safe and well?

But hey ......... because Socialism

I think we had libraries in the UK before we had a socialist government. And we had free museums until Thatcher starved them of funding.

But there's another thread for Tory bashing.

 

[blueinsa]

There really is little point in engaging with you when you believe such wild conspiracy theories.

I have told you before that taking inspiration from Marx does not make you a Marxist just as taking inspiration from Salazar would not make you a Fascist. The Labour party is a democratic organisation and nothing can be done, no manifesto agreed without the members agreement. That of course in your head will mean everyone who is a Labour party member is a Marxist.

There is a huge difference between overthrowing Capitalism and changing Capitalism so it works for everyone not just the few. Of course you will not understand that because of your wild reds under the bed conspiracy nonsense.

For every reds under the bed conspiracy there is a right wing fascist one just around a corner.

Left and right just as bad as each other.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I think we had libraries in the UK before we had a socialist government. And we had free museums until Thatcher starved them of funding.

But there's another thread for Tory bashing.

Free libraries were originally set up because of pressure brought about by the Chartists who were a working class movement.Prior to that libraries were either attached to museums or were subscription only. Some libraries would only allow membership by men.

but I digress.......

 

[mcfc1632]

1. Why would we push through a commitment that’s worse than the one we currently have? I appreciate your point is that political integration is an inevitability but we may as well have our current position whilst it lasts (if it is an inevitability). I think we forget that it’s supposed to be a decision on what’s best for the country.

2. The EU will not reopen the Withdrawal Agreement so it may as well be a deadline to leave on no deal or with the current agreement.

Let's ne honest with the electorate is where I am coming from

They are the 2 honest options

1. If we Remain we will at a future point integrate so let's open our eyes and embrace that fact rather than get dragged in at a later date

2. The EU have been known to change all sorts of red lines at the 11th hour - but anyway the option Remains the same in any case. We will not see movement from the EU until they see the threat of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it. A binding vote would secure that backbone.

 

[Vic]

Free libraries were originally set up because of pressure brought about by the Chartists who were a working class movement.Prior to that libraries were either attached to museums or were subscription only. Some libraries would only allow membership by men.

but I digress.......

Chetham's predates Chartism. Now there's probably a thesis in the extent to which Chartists accessed Chetham's.....

 

[mcfc1632]

Forgive me if I misrepresent your view but by your reckoning, wouldn't Remain on the status quo lead inexorably to your "1" option anyway?

Absolutely - so rather than seeing the UK population simply ending up in that position anyway - let's embrace it, stop with the prevarication and become proactive and committed members.

But first and foremost - let's be honest with the UK population about where things will end up

 

[Ban-jani]

Let's ne honest with the electorate is where I am coming from

They are the 2 honest options

1. If we Remain we will at a future point integrate so let's open our eyes and embrace that fact rather than get dragged in at a later date

2. The EU have been known to change all sorts of red lines at the 11th hour - but anyway the option Remains the same in any case. We will not see movement from the EU until they see the threat of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it. A binding vote would secure that backbone.

1. That maybe so, it maybe not, I’m not going to argue whether full integration will happen or not as its hard to tell at this point but if that’s what it will take for a referendum, I’ll do it. I just think we’d be daft to give away the scenario we have now.

2. I suppose we could offer the 2nd referendum as a sort of offer to reopen the agreement should leave win. The EU may take the chance on it because they’ll want full integration from us.

I do think the above is all hypothetical and probably won’t happen.

 

[Vic]

Absolutely - so rather than seeing the UK population simply ending up in that position anyway - let's embrace it, stop with the prevarication and become proactive and committed members.

But first and foremost - let's be honest with the UK population about where things will end up

If people had been honest three years ago about where things will end up, we wouldn't be debating where things will end up.

 

[mcfc1632]

Id like to see pressure from Dublin on Brussels which i think is happening regards no hard border and limited goods checks on agri done away from the border either side with most major importers and exporters on a trusted trader arrangement in the short term with of course FOM across the border as in the common travel area.

Do that, very publicly work on the tech solutions that have been suggested and match the time frames for those with a similar time frame given to the WA.

Huge amounts of political will are needed to solve the border issue but its possible if that will is there and funnily enough, the GFA is such an important document and agreement that no side, be it us, Dublin or Brussels can walk away from it and say fuck you its a hard border and checks and that is that.

Dublin and Brussels have played the border superbly and rightly so but i do believe deep down, Dublin will separate itself from any hard border request from Brussels as its an absolute no no for any Irish gov to implement one and that trumps any SM/CU/EU rule.

Geographically with no other land borders to worry about its doable imo and the sheer scale of a no deal brexit and its impact on the ROI and NI especially suggests that something will be done of its only the lack of a time frame attached to the WA is stopping a deal being done.

For clarity and to spare the thread descending into its usual arguments over this, you asked my opinion and here it is.

All this is very sensible and doable

Provide a fixed period - say 2 years - maybe longer - but absolutely fixed.

The vast majority of the work would be done within the period - it always would have been the case if the issue had not been weaponised.

In the event that there is a need for some low level checks for certain goods / circumstances put those in place - this would not be the drama it is, for he convenience of the weaponising, made out to be, IMO

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Let's ne honest with the electorate is where I am coming from

They are the 2 honest options

1. If we Remain we will at a future point integrate so let's open our eyes and embrace that fact rather than get dragged in at a later date

2. The EU have been known to change all sorts of red lines at the 11th hour - but anyway the option Remains the same in any case. We will not see movement from the EU until they see the threat of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it. A binding vote would secure that backbone.

But the whole point is that the Eu cannot force us to 'integrate' without the UK holding a referendum ... if that is the confirmed direction of the Eu then that's the point where the UK should make its decision .... not based on media spin and lies told by Johnson Gove and Farage

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

1. That maybe so, it maybe not, I’m not going to argue whether full integration will happen or not as its hard to tell at this point but if that’s what it will take for a referendum, I’ll do it. I just think we’d be daft to give away the scenario we have now.

2. I suppose we could offer the 2nd referendum as a sort of offer to reopen the agreement should leave win. The EU may take the chance on it because they’ll want full integration from us.

I do think the above is all hypothetical and probably won’t happen.

I think its BS. The EU dont want to piss anyone off and they don't want to feed the narrative of the Alt Right nationalists here and across Europe. There might be a number pushing for more integration but it would come down to the Council and they wont push anything like this. Zero chance such things would be forced on us anytime soon - assuming we remain.

 

[west didsblue]

I think its BS. The EU dont want to piss anyone off and they don't want to feed the narrative of the Alt Right nationalists here and across Europe. There might be a number pushing for more integration but it would come down to the Council and they wont push anything like this. Zero chance such things would be forced on us anytime soon - assuming we remain.

Got it in one. This inevitability of full integration is Brexiter Project Fear. There are certainly people with a full integration agenda within the commission but the real power is with the member states and hence the council. That is one of the reasons why the commission nominees are arguably second division politicians with the top flight ones staying with their countries, especially the larger ones with most influence (which used to include us). As others have said the treaties are such that full integration cannot be forced even if there was a will to do it.

 

[Ban-jani]

I think its BS. The EU dont want to piss anyone off and they don't want to feed the narrative of the Alt Right nationalists here and across Europe. There might be a number pushing for more integration but it would come down to the Council and they wont push anything like this. Zero chance such things would be forced on us anytime soon - assuming we remain.

It may eventually happen but we’d be absolutely crackers to through away the decent position we had.

 

[blueinsa]

Got it in one. This inevitability of full integration is Brexiter Project Fear. There are certainly people with a full integration agenda within the commission but the real power is with the member states and hence the council. That is one of the reasons why the commission nominees are arguably second division politicians with the top flight ones staying with their countries, especially the larger ones with most influence (which used to include us). As others have said the treaties are such that full integration cannot be forced even if there was a will to do it.

Macron and Merkel and no doubt her replacement are well known federalists.

The EU will continue to do their bidding in that regards and due to the power they hold the rest of the EU will as usual be taken along for the ride.

To deny the federalist dreams and aims of the EU is head in the sand stuff imo.

 

[George Hannah]

Everything that benefits you and your family has been introduced by a bunch of Socialists (and this list is not exhaustive)

• NHS
• Employment Protections
• Youth Opportunities Programme
• State Pension
• Libraries
• Good Friday Agreement
• Weekends
• Annual Holidays
• Sick Pay
• State Education
• Protection of core utilities by nationalisation (Steel / water / Power / Transport etc)
• Council Housing
• Ending the death penalty
• Decriminalisation of Homosexuality
• Paternity Leave
• Legislation against Racism
• The Open University
• Equal Pay Act
• National Minimum Wage
• Devolution in Scotland / Wales & Northern Ireland
• Banned Fox Hunting
• Introduced Free television licences for over 75s
• Sure Start Centres
• Free entry into museums & galleries
• Free Bus Travel for over 60's
• Free eye tests for over 60's
• Civil Partnerships
• Human Rights Act
• The Equality Act
• Cancellation of debt for the worlds poorest countries
• Worlds first Climate Change Act
• Tax Credits
• Repealing Anti Trade Union legislation

Guess which party objected to every single one and to this day attempts to erode your and your children's rights to live your life educated, employed, safe and well?

But hey ......... because Socialism

There are many varieties of Socialism but the brand promoted by the current Labour Party leadership could only legitimately claim a clear influence in the last item on your list. You should also perhaps notice that many of those achievements had nothing whatsoever to do with 'Socialists' at all, just ordinary Labour Party members and of course the Tories (eg Butler Education Act) together with pre-war Liberals in terms of Pensions etc.