Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

Yet no deal is what you're getting, as you empowered demagogues and ideologues to carry out their own narrow minded vision of Brexit after telling all people they'd be all things. Is this the Brexit you voted for?

Ideologues you say?

Far more applicable to the leaders of the EU as they insidiously implement their federalist dreams - that isn't the Common Market we voted for

 

[Rascal]

I am looking forward to post Brexit 75% unemployment in his constituency and him having to explain himself.

To be honest the only person in his constituency I would want to lose there job is him.

Jumped up little squirt.

 

[Rascal]

They are still confused that labelling the opposition a bunch of racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, fascists didn’t win them the referendum.

The #FBPE are as extreme as the ERG and they should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this sort of nonsense. They are the Illiberal liberals and narrowing down the reasons to vote leave to this is just plain fucking stupid.

Not everyone who voted leave is a racist although I am sure every racist voted leave.

 

[Rascal]

from common market

Ideologues you say?

Far more applicable to the leaders of the EU as they insidiously implement their federalist dreams - that isn't the Common Market we voted for

Both sides in the UK have their ideologues, whether they be federalists or isolationists and the fact we voted to be part of the common market is totally irrelevant in my opinion. The ideologues against the EEC included Benn and Powell whilst the advocates included Heath and Jenkins. It is an issue that divided both main parties back then and still divides both parties today.

There is an argument that our failure to buy into the EU project and fully embrace it allowed the other constituent nations federalists to gain the upper hand, if we had of truly committed to the EU we could have halted that progression towards federalism if we had so wished, but I think you underestimate the feelings of the other nations who do consider Federalism to be a future goal. I don't think they have been insidious in pursuit of that goal, I have always assumed that is the natural progression from common market to federalist state and as I have stated I am in favour of a fully federated EU only if there is a fully accountable democratic system in place with an elected President, a system of regional parliaments and supranational political parties. Obviously voting remain/status quo was never intended to give that option to the people which is one of the failures of the referendum and the reason I could not vote for remain.

I also think that you choosing to use the word insidious creates the impression that the EU always meant the UK to be subjugated to its whims and be a secondary state rather than a powerful voice inside the EU. That impression has been skilfully manipulated by the isolationists into making people believe we are a subsidiary to the democratic process and that we are marginalised rather than central to its future, I believe that has made us look a small minded nation who are somewhat aloof to the perceived common good that the EU could achieve if it became a fully federalised state. That is the bedrock of English exceptionalism and that exceptionalism is damaging to our standing in the world. That we are prepared to accept that damage is quite mystifying to me because I always considered the UK to be a nation of vision not introspection.

Saying that what is done is done and we must accept the democratic process and leave and if we are to leave it should be without any sort of deal and then we have to search for a role in the world that suits our capabilities, I am not buying the sunny upland unicorn imagery of the isolationists as I believe that to be utter nonsense and the powers that be have been remiss in trying to sell that to a gullible public. We may prosper, we may not, but democracy must prevail.

 

[mcfc1632]

from common market
Both sides in the UK have their ideologues, whether they be federalists or isolationists and the fact we voted to be part of the common market is totally irrelevant in my opinion. The ideologues against the EEC included Benn and Powell whilst the advocates included Heath and Jenkins. It is an issue that divided both main parties back then and still divides both parties today.

There is an argument that our failure to buy into the EU project and fully embrace it allowed the other constituent nations federalists to gain the upper hand, if we had of truly committed to the EU we could have halted that progression towards federalism if we had so wished, but I think you underestimate the feelings of the other nations who do consider Federalism to be a future goal. I don't think they have been insidious in pursuit of that goal, I have always assumed that is the natural progression from common market to federalist state and as I have stated I am in favour of a fully federated EU only if there is a fully accountable democratic system in place with an elected President, a system of regional parliaments and supranational political parties. Obviously voting remain/status quo was never intended to give that option to the people which is one of the failures of the referendum and the reason I could not vote for remain.

I also think that you choosing to use the word insidious creates the impression that the EU always meant the UK to be subjugated to its whims and be a secondary state rather than a powerful voice inside the EU. That impression has been skilfully manipulated by the isolationists into making people believe we are a subsidiary to the democratic process and that we are marginalised rather than central to its future, I believe that has made us look a small minded nation who are somewhat aloof to the perceived common good that the EU could achieve if it became a fully federalised state. That is the bedrock of English exceptionalism and that exceptionalism is damaging to our standing in the world. That we are prepared to accept that damage is quite mystifying to me because I always considered the UK to be a nation of vision not introspection.

Saying that what is done is done and we must accept the democratic process and leave and if we are to leave it should be without any sort of deal and then we have to search for a role in the world that suits our capabilities, I am not buying the sunny upland unicorn imagery of the isolationists as I believe that to be utter nonsense and the powers that be have been remiss in trying to sell that to a gullible public. We may prosper, we may not, but democracy must prevail.

"The ideologues against the EEC included Benn and Powell...."

All interesting - But in the here and now of the 21st century - the ideologues are the EU leaders of the federalist project

"I also think that you choosing to use the word insidious creates the impression that the EU always meant the UK to be subjugated to its whims and be a secondary state rather than a powerful voice inside the EU. That impression has been skilfully manipulated by the isolationists....."

I use the word insidious because I see it as being the most apt word to use when reflecting on the methods that they have used to progress their project in increments, with increasing formalisation, such as of their constitution, secured through 'Treaties'

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

It’s from 20 years ago and made me laugh but the language used is oddly familiar...

I watched that with sadness........ we are still populated by the same Little Englanders now as we were then... having made no progress whatsoever.

 

[Vic]

from common market
Both sides in the UK have their ideologues, whether they be federalists or isolationists and the fact we voted to be part of the common market is totally irrelevant in my opinion. The ideologues against the EEC included Benn and Powell whilst the advocates included Heath and Jenkins. It is an issue that divided both main parties back then and still divides both parties today.

There is an argument that our failure to buy into the EU project and fully embrace it allowed the other constituent nations federalists to gain the upper hand, if we had of truly committed to the EU we could have halted that progression towards federalism if we had so wished, but I think you underestimate the feelings of the other nations who do consider Federalism to be a future goal. I don't think they have been insidious in pursuit of that goal, I have always assumed that is the natural progression from common market to federalist state and as I have stated I am in favour of a fully federated EU only if there is a fully accountable democratic system in place with an elected President, a system of regional parliaments and supranational political parties. Obviously voting remain/status quo was never intended to give that option to the people which is one of the failures of the referendum and the reason I could not vote for remain.

I also think that you choosing to use the word insidious creates the impression that the EU always meant the UK to be subjugated to its whims and be a secondary state rather than a powerful voice inside the EU. That impression has been skilfully manipulated by the isolationists into making people believe we are a subsidiary to the democratic process and that we are marginalised rather than central to its future, I believe that has made us look a small minded nation who are somewhat aloof to the perceived common good that the EU could achieve if it became a fully federalised state. That is the bedrock of English exceptionalism and that exceptionalism is damaging to our standing in the world. That we are prepared to accept that damage is quite mystifying to me because I always considered the UK to be a nation of vision not introspection.

Saying that what is done is done and we must accept the democratic process and leave and if we are to leave it should be without any sort of deal and then we have to search for a role in the world that suits our capabilities, I am not buying the sunny upland unicorn imagery of the isolationists as I believe that to be utter nonsense and the powers that be have been remiss in trying to sell that to a gullible public. We may prosper, we may not, but democracy must prevail.

I'm not sure which "other nations" consider federalism a future goal. The Eurobarometer says most EU citizens think the EU is going in the wrong direction (but then most think their own country is going in the wrong direction). But most still think being in the EU has been good for their country (going up since our referendum).

 

[Blue Hefner]

You voted, Leave. No?

Unfortunately, yeah. I heard there was a study which found there are lots like me, supported the idea of the EU but wavered during the run up, during and post referendum. Now you can argue that’s the idea of a campaign but I’m not really bothered. From an ideology point of view I have/had no real thoughts on it but what I do know is that my life(to a greater or lesser extent) will be negatively effected by this and some a lot more. So I ask, why are we *actually* doing it?

I find it absurd that the nation are tied to a 50/50 decision which I made over 3 years ago which has no obvious upside - there are no other circumstances where I would make a decision, then realise it’s a total cock up and be stuck with it:

Buy a house - sell it
Get married - divorce is an option
Even if you have kids you can do a runner but with this we are stuck with it

A misguided vote of a left wing exit from the EU results in a hard right take over

There was a guy on the radio saying people legitimately voted for the Nazi Party for a variety of reasons and they took that vote and did what they did - now I’m obviously not saying it’s the same but the ‘well you voted for it’ is already coming out whether that be job losses, businesses leaving etc.

It is fucking madness.

 

[Ban-jani]

Wrong.
They would only have gained power in a coalition with every loony party you can name.
Libs, greens, SNP, Plaid , Sinn Fein , the lot.
Labour wouldn't have seen out a year.

You think the Libs and Greens are loony parties?

What the fuck are the DUP then?

The fact Remains Labour weren’t far off in 2017, despite Scotland turning their backs on them.

 

[Vic]

You picked the one election the BNP got half a million votes in a nation wide vote less than two percent of the vote and nowhere near the over a million Scots 38% of the vote for leave, why not pick the nearest to the EU referendum of 1600 votes zero percent of the vote. Never ever has a vote for an overtly racist party got anywhere near the Scots leave vote.

I picked the election which showed that half a million people (out of half the population) were willing to vote for an overtly racist party. It's not hard to work out who they voted for in more recent elections. Then there are the mildly racist voters. Again Toby Young in the Spectator made a big thing of the survey that said now only 23% of us would feel discomfort if a close family member married someone black or Asian (down from over 50% 35 years ago).

I'm not sure whether the sensitivity is real or manufactured, or is a more general denial about racism in the UK. A yougov poll reckoned 4% of people think it's not racist to use a racial slur to someone's face and 7% think it's not racist to use racial slurs full stop.

 

[Rascal]

"The ideologues against the EEC included Benn and Powell...."

All interesting - But in the here and now of the 21st century - the ideologues are the EU leaders of the federalist project

"I also think that you choosing to use the word insidious creates the impression that the EU always meant the UK to be subjugated to its whims and be a secondary state rather than a powerful voice inside the EU. That impression has been skilfully manipulated by the isolationists....."

I use the word insidious because I see it as being the most apt word to use when reflecting on the methods that they have used to progress their project in increments, with increasing formalisation, such as of their constitution, secured through 'Treaties'

You chose to use the common market, I was showing ideologues were around when we joined, it is interesting from a historical context because that divide still remains. Especially when you choose Benn and Powell as they were representative of the extremes of the two main parties at the time but shared a common ideology.

And my point was if we had been more progressive in our involvement those treaties could have been arranged in a way to avoid those incremental increases towards federalisation, but we were not because our considered exceptionalist stance

 

[Turks Head Again]

You think the Libs and Greens are loony parties?

What the fuck are the DUP then?

The fact Remains Labour weren’t far off in 2017, despite Scotland turning their backs on them.

The DUP are another loony party whose only policy is to disagree with everyone.

 

[inbetween]

I'm not sure which "other nations" consider federalism a future goal. The Eurobarometer says most EU citizens think the EU is going in the wrong direction (but then most think their own country is going in the wrong direction). But most still think being in the EU has been good for their country (going up since referendum).

Obviously the EU has been fantastic for Europe but is that because working together easier has been fantastic or because the system of bureaucracy has been fantastic?

Had it been possible, what do you think benefits us most, remaining in Europe or remaining in the EU as an institution?

 

[bugsyblue]

Unfortunately, yeah. I heard there was a study which found there are lots like me, supported the idea of the EU but wavered during the run up, during and post referendum. Now you can argue that’s the idea of a campaign but I’m not really bothered. From an ideology point of view I have/had no real thoughts on it but what I do know is that my life(to a greater or lesser extent) will be negatively effected by this and some a lot more. So I ask, why are we *actually* doing it?

I find it absurd that the nation are tied to a 50/50 decision which I made over 3 years ago which has no obvious upside - there are no other circumstances where I would make a decision, then realise it’s a total cock up and be stuck with it:

Buy a house - sell it
Get married - divorce is an option
Even if you have kids you can do a runner but with this we are stuck with it

A misguided vote of a left wing exit from the EU results in a hard right take over

There was a guy on the radio saying people legitimately voted for the Nazi Party for a variety of reasons and they took that vote and did what they did - now I’m obviously not saying it’s the same but the ‘well you voted for it’ is already coming out whether that be job losses, businesses leaving etc.

It is fucking madness.

Good on you to speak out. It seems lots of people are so stubborn that they stick to whatever choice or side they took, as you say, 3 years ago!

I've debated with many posters on here that chose to leave, some I completely understand their reasons for it though I personally disagree with them, I respect them, but what I can't fathom is why anyone wants Brexit at any cost? It is totally madness and for 99% of the people in this country they will be worse off. What saddens me more than anything is seeing the likes of Farage and Boris actually benefit, financially and professionally, from this political fallout which they both had a hand (and as it transpires illegally).

 

[Blue Hefner]

“The un-democratic backstop” - do they think we are stupid?

1) it is obvious they have been told to use this line at every opportunity

2) our current PM voted for it

 

[Blue Hefner]

“The un-democratic backstop” - do they think we are stupid?

1) it is obvious they have been told to use this line at every opportunity

2) our current PM voted for it

 

[blueinsa]

“The un-democratic backstop” - do they think we are stupid?

1) it is obvious they have been told to use this line at every opportunity

2) our current PM voted for it

The backstop is dead.

Not only will the ERG never accept it( what will they ever accept?)

A majority in the rest of parliament will not accept it either.

It no longer matters a jot who voted for it originally, it’s dead.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You chose to use the common market, I was showing ideologues were around when we joined, it is interesting from a historical context because that divide still remains. Especially when you choose Benn and Powell as they were representative of the extremes of the two main parties at the time but shared a common ideology.

And my point was if we had been more progressive in our involvement those treaties could have been arranged in a way to avoid those incremental increases towards federalisation, but we were not because our considered exceptionalist stance

Leave (not join) was very much the position of the left then. Some old debates from the early 70's on youtube show Michael Foot laying out a proper case for not being part of the EU (common market). A class above the rw populist arguments now.

 

[Blue Hefner]

The backstop is dead.

Not only will the ERG never accept it( what will they ever accept?)

A majority in the rest of parliament will not accept it either.

It no longer matters a jot who voted for it originally, it’s dead.

That is a different point to the language the MPs have clearly been instructed to use. It’s like when they all started to use the phrase ‘EU intransigence’ and ‘we get to control our money, laws and borders’ - they are phrased they throw out which rarely get challenged

What money? 1% of national expenditure
What borders? The ones we already have full control over just choose not to...
What laws?

The whole process would have been a lot better if these people were asked, what *exactly* do you mean by that

 

[Ban-jani]

The DUP are another loony party whose only policy is to disagree with everyone.

Who do you not think are loony parties, out of interest?