Another new Brexit thread

[blueinsa]

No there’s 5. You’re probably getting it mixed up with parliamentary constituencies. There are five local government districts which is what were used in the EU referendum vote.

I did, you are right, apologies.

 

[East Level 2]

We all (or nearly all) will lose out from this whole sorry shit-show. An absolute fucking abortion from start to finish. Our standing as a nation diminished, probably irreversibly.

You seem to be missing the sunlight in the sunlit uplands.

 

[mcfc1632]

BREXIT had the potential to be a brilliant opportunity for the UK, instead as it moves forward those in charge are squandering any good will we had, any standing in the world we had earned and are now begging the likes of the USA for a deal with the promise of pork pies.

Fuck me, what an embarrassment.

Totally agree - the thing is this government - well May's actually - has been so inept that everyone in the country has been badly let down. We hear a lot about how Remainers are in a state of angst - but I have said frequently that it is the Leavers that have at least as much right to be pissed off.

Indeed:

"BREXIT had the potential to be a brilliant opportunity for the UK...."

But it has been - since before the referendum - brought forward and since managed by people that do not share that view - and, not surprisingly, therefore it has been royally fucked up.

Commitment to realising the opportunity of Brexit would have seen some preparation before the vote - just in case...…..

Genuine commitment to implementing the outcome of the vote would have seen robust planning from 24/06/16 - led by people that are committed to delivering Brexit - instead we got that EU sycophant Robbins, the outright Remainer Hammond and that leadership vacuum May.

BTW - I promised to get back to you with an answer on the questions you posed about No-Hard border and FOM. Did my post answer your points?

 

[AlexWilliamsGloves]

Never said they didn’t.

I’m the one that’s arguing that the troubles will be bad, against someone who said they won’t.

So you’re responding to the wrong guy.

i never saw this reply, i guess it got lost when the thread got pulled....my point was largely rhetorical anyway :-)

 

[KS55]

Yep, our nation is being laughed at across the world. I don't blame anyone who voted in good faith for what they believed whether that be remain or leave. We were given Hobsons choice by arrogant cunts and manipulated by vested interest.

All to save the Tory party, that to me is unforgiveable and the ramifications of it are the diminishment of our standing in the world and the rise of the far right, emboldened by utter cunts like Farage and his ilk, corrupted by Bannon and his cohorts and for what? Private gain for the elite, not for the good of the people for sure. I say this as a person who thought Brexit was a noble cause as espoused by one of my hero's Tony Benn and a cause still pursued by the likes of Galloway, but instead of it being noble, it has become shoddy, ill thought out and verging on the ridiculous. At a time when we needed giants we got pygmies like Johnson and Mogg.

BREXIT had the potential to be a brilliant opportunity for the UK, instead as it moves forward those in charge are squandering any good will we had, any standing in the world we had earned and are now begging the likes of the USA for a deal with the promise of pork pies.

Fuck me, what an embarrassment.

You're not wrong, but we'll survive

 

[Rascal]

Totally agree - the thing is this government - well May's actually - has been so inept that everyone in the country has been badly let down. We hear a lot about how Remainers are in a state of angst - but I have said frequently that it is the Leavers that have at least as much right to be pissed off.

Indeed:

"BREXIT had the potential to be a brilliant opportunity for the UK...."

But it has been - since before the referendum - brought forward and since managed by people that do not share that view - and, not surprisingly, therefore it has been royally fucked up.

Commitment to realising the opportunity of Brexit would have seen some preparation before the vote - just in case...…..

Genuine commitment to implementing the outcome of the vote would have seen robust planning from 24/06/16 - led by people that are committed to delivering Brexit - instead we got that EU sycophant Robbins, the outright Remainer Hammond and that leadership vacuum May.

BTW - I promised to get back to you with an answer on the questions you posed about No-Hard border and FOM. Did my post answer your points?

Ineptitude on an epic scale. A lack of forethought and planning and it is down to the arrogance of Cameron and Osborne. Those picking up the pieces were left a poisoned chalice and I doubt even the most committed could have delivered anything better due to the amount of mistruths bandied about. When you are promised the earth and you get the moon people will feel angry and disgruntled with the whole process. I really do not think anybody considered the enormity of the task and when you had the stuff such as "easiest trade deal in history" spouted then people were always going to be let down. I have great sympathy with those who voted for Brexit, I think they voted for a damp squib and no amount of bravado from the likes of Johnson will rescue the situation. When it really comes to down to Melton Mowbray pork pies and then lies about the pies it shows what an absolute clusterfuck those in charge have made of the process. We look desperate and the Great has gone from Britain, we are now pitied and ridiculed and that hurts.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Shows how badly thought through the referendum was. It was far more complicated than those silly cunts who brought it forward thought.

Too much left open to interpretation.

Yet this 'complication' would never, ever have been so complicated had remain won the referendum.
You cannot put in depth detailed definitions on ballot papers, it gave, quite rightly, two clear choices, stay in the
EU, leave the EU.

 

[Rascal]

BTW - I promised to get back to you with an answer on the questions you posed about No-Hard border and FOM. Did my post answer your points?

Yes i did, thank you. I liked the post in acknowledgement of your reply although i was in a rush and didnt have time to say so.

Cheers

 

[Rascal]

Yet this 'complication' would never, ever have been so complicated had remain won the referendum.
You cannot put in depth detailed definitions on ballot papers, it gave, quite rightly, two clear choices, stay in the
EU, leave the EU.

Absolutely, which was why I was against a referendum from the start. It should never have taken place. If we were to leave it should have been through the parliamentary process not an ill thought out referendum of which as a nation we have no real history of holding.

 

[Vic]

Yet this 'complication' would never, ever have been so complicated had remain won the referendum.
....

Well, ain't that the truth.
So the question should have been "Do you want things as they now are, simple and uncomplicated, or do you want never-ending palaver?"

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Absolutely, which was why I was against a referendum from the start. It should never have taken place. If we were to leave it should have been through the parliamentary process not an ill thought out referendum of which as a nation we have no real history of holding.

I appreciate your point, but disagree, I was most certainly for a referendum, and judging by the turnout, so
were millions more. As for parliamentary process, when that same parliament starts attempting to overturn it,
and that same parliament previously had no problem whatsoever with holding one until subsequent events rocked it
to the core, then problems arise.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Ineptitude on an epic scale. A lack of forethought and planning and it is down to the arrogance of Cameron and Osborne. Those picking up the pieces were left a poisoned chalice and I doubt even the most committed could have delivered anything better due to the amount of mistruths bandied about. When you are promised the earth and you get the moon people will feel angry and disgruntled with the whole process. I really do not think anybody considered the enormity of the task and when you had the stuff such as "easiest trade deal in history" spouted then people were always going to be let down. I have great sympathy with those who voted for Brexit, I think they voted for a damp squib and no amount of bravado from the likes of Johnson will rescue the situation. When it really comes to down to Melton Mowbray pork pies and then lies about the pies it shows what an absolute clusterfuck those in charge have made of the process. We look desperate and the Great has gone from Britain, we are now pitied and ridiculed and that hurts.

Absolutely fucking spot on, mate - and whilst May was utterly inept, and Johnson is an utter ****, the blame for this shit-show has to rest with Cameron. A gross and egregious dereliction of duty.

 

[Vic]

Things have really reached a new low when Remainers are queuing up to hold scousers up as being exemplars of intelligent reasoning and balanced judgement

Missed the point there - it was about how easily people with limited "intelligent reasoning" were manipulated by the media. Take away the Sun and balanced judgment is much better. If eveybody had boycotted the Sun, Remain would have won.

 

[Vic]

I appreciate your point, but disagree, I was most certainly for a referendum, and judging by the turnout, so
were millions more. As for parliamentary process, when that same parliament starts attempting to overturn it,
and that same parliament previously had no problem whatsoever with holding one until subsequent events rocked it
to the core, then problems arise.

By "subsequent events" do you mean realising how bad Brexit would be?

 

[Rascal]

I appreciate your point, but disagree, I was most certainly for a referendum, and judging by the turnout, so
were millions more. As for parliamentary process, when that same parliament starts attempting to overturn it,
and that same parliament previously had no problem whatsoever with holding one until subsequent events rocked it
to the core, then problems arise.

And therein likes the crux. Until parliament has a leave majority, leaving will always be difficult. If parliament had a leave majority we would have left by now without ever having to hold a referendum.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Yet this 'complication' would never, ever have been so complicated had remain won the referendum.
You cannot put in depth detailed definitions on ballot papers, it gave, quite rightly, two clear choices, stay in the
EU, leave the EU.

You appear to want to simplify things to a wholly unrealistic extent; the mechanism should have been clear at the point of the vote. That it was not, is the reason we are in limbo and inflicting self-harm on a national scale.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

And therein likes the crux. Until parliament has a leave majority, leaving will always be difficult. If parliament had a leave majority we would have left by now without ever having to hold a referendum.

Agreed.

 

[west didsblue]

Yet this 'complication' would never, ever have been so complicated had remain won the referendum.
You cannot put in depth detailed definitions on ballot papers, it gave, quite rightly, two clear choices, stay in the
EU, leave the EU.

Problem is the nearest thing to a manifesto on the official Vote Leave website makes commitments that we have absolutely no chance of keeping. Here's a few highlights:

• Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. We will take back the power to negotiate our own trade deals.
• We will build a new European institutional architecture that enables all countries, whether in or out of the EU or euro, to trade freely and cooperate in a friendly way.
  
• We will negotiate a new UK-EU Treaty and end the legal supremacy of EU law and the European Court before the 2020 election.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
Where does No Deal fit into those commitments?
In fact, where does May's deal fit?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You appear to want to simplify things to a wholly unrealistic extent; the mechanism should have been clear at the point of the vote. That it was not, is the reason we are in limbo and inflicting self-harm on a national scale.

No, there was consensus in the house for a vote.
Nobody, on the voting day, to my knowledge, was complaining about the straight in/out questions.
There were clear and concise statements made that leaving would be enacted, with or without a 'deal.'
This was even confirmed by those arch remainers, Grieve, Cameron and Hammond, who have since tried to assert that nobody did.
All that happened was, and is, a refusal to accept the result.

 

[hgblue]

And therein likes the crux. Until parliament has a leave majority, leaving will always be difficult. If parliament had a leave majority we would have left by now without ever having to hold a referendum.

I have to disagree, the decision to Leave/Remain is a decision of such magnitude a referendum was needed to authorise either course of action, a government taking us out having obtained a majority in the HoC with say 40% of the vote, which is perfectly possible under our system, would have lacked a popular mandate to do so imo. There's also the issue that in a GE people vote for particular parties for many different reasons, and it needed to be clear that the decision to Leave was not clouded by other considerations. I have to say the one thing that has genuinely shocked me is that many Remainers have failed to accept the result and seek to stop Brexit despite the matter having been effectively decided in what we were told was a once in a generation exercise in democracy the result of which was going to be implemented regardless of which side won. So I tend to agree with you that for the referendum result to be fully implemented a Leave majority in Parliament is required and I'm confident that's coming in the GE which I presume is not too far away.