Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

I believe the result broadly reflects sentiment in the country, which is split down the middle. If it did not, my view about the outcome would be different. I don't believe the scenario you paint should alter the broad end result, no; not least because I don't believe it greatly altered the foregoing mathematics.

Which is fair. We just see the thing through different lenses. CA were instrumental in changing the result, they have a track record of doing it in elections across the globe.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Which is fair. We just see the thing through different lenses. CA were instrumental in changing the result, they have a track record of doing it in elections across the globe.

My view is also formed by the fact that we can (and probably will) rejoin in a few years, albeit with the pound possibly being sacrificed as a result.

 

[Saddleworth2]

If you apply that principle generally then you might as well abolish most elections since it’s rare for them to produce a winner with the support of 50%+ of the population. How many of our governments, local councils etc ever received that level of support?

But this wasn’t an election was it? It was a referendum of such national importance for generations that a ‘supra majority’ should have been required in each of the countries that form the U.K.

 

[Saddleworth2]

My view is also formed by the fact that we can (and probably will) rejoin in a few years, albeit with the pound possibly being sacrificed as a result.

Maybe, maybe not. If we do rejoin, it will not be on the advantageous terms we have at present for sure. That’s why I genuinely believe history will see this as a national tragedy of our own making.

 

[mcfc1632]

I don't want to throw oil on the fire, but I understand his observations of the tactics being used in the UK and across the pond, but I also understand your misgivings at the over use of the word 'Nazi'.

However just bare in mind @mcfc1632 that I and others find the casual use of the word 'weaponised', thrown in at every opportunity when talking about the border and the GFA, as not only highly subjective, but also from my perspective lacking in understanding of the psyche of the people here North and South.

We all use hyperbole, I appreciate that. You put forward a good argument despite me not agreeing with it.
So does Dibble, even if the terminology could be tempered a bit, in some other opinions.

Fair enough for you to state those views - but a very very big difference to someone comparing people that support Leaving the EU to Nazis - either being like Nazis or accepting being led by Nazis IMO

I use weaponise - because, from the perspective of leading negotiations, that is what I firmly believe that is what the EU have deliberately and callously done. I generally say it is the EU that have done this.

In taking that view I do not mean to trample over the centuries of valid sensitivities that exist in Ireland - it is just a simple fact (IMO) about events in 2016-2019

For me - the answer to this conundrum is straightforward

1. There needs to be a majority in Westminster to effectively implement Brexit - therefore bet the house and go for a GE to achieve that. Prepare well by establishing in the minds of those that are not closed-minded that the EU is the 'bully' and that those that are seeking to derail Brexit are undermining the will of the people. There are so many remain constituencies in the South that would still vote Tory - and so many marginals that will be affected by a LibDem/Labour split vote that I think that a majority will be won.

2. If you are successful in doing that go back to the EU and be clear that we will leave the EU on the new date that will have been agreed - probably end March 2020, with or without a deal. Secure an agreement that provides to both sides an agreed period of transition to implement arrangements for that situation - I am quite confident in that scenario the EU would agree such a transition- if not we just leave and take remedial actions.

3. As part of that agreement, respect the EU's position re the protection of the SM and agree that the only practical thing to do is to have a border down the Irish Sea. Hold a referendum in NI. It is for the people of N.I. to decide. Mind you - I suggest that Ireland should be mindful of what it wishes for - N.I. is a great strain on the Treasury

4. In 2025, or thereabouts, hold an Indyref2 on independence for Scotland - it is for the people of Scotland to decide their future. From a personal viewpoint I am, regretfully, confident that if there was to be a referendum in Scotland 3 years or later after the UK has left the EU then the vote against independence will be greater than it was the first time - I suggest people holding a different view have perhaps not thought it through

But getting back to all these Nazi slurs - it is frankly disgusting and I had thought that mods had asked for it to stop

 

[Blue Hefner]

My view is also formed by the fact that we can (and probably will) rejoin in a few years, albeit with the pound possibly being sacrificed as a result.

Given the way the £ is going, it won’t be much of a sacrifice......

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Comparisons between Brexiteers and Nazis aren't entirety wide of the mark, as Rees-Mogg definitely dresses as an SS Kommandant would in his down-time from work.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Given the way the £ is going, it won’t be much of a sacrifice......

Might give it the shot in the arm it desperately needs.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Fair enough for you to state those views - but a very very big difference to someone comparing people that support Leaving the EU to Nazis - either being like Nazis or accepting being led by Nazis IMO

I use weaponise - because, from the perspective of leading negotiations, that is what I firmly believe that is what the EU have deliberately and callously done. I generally say it is the EU that have done this.

In taking that view I do not mean to trample over the centuries of valid sensitivities that exist in Ireland - it is just a simple fact (IMO) about events in 2016-2019

For me - the answer to this conundrum is straightforward

1. There needs to be a majority in Westminster to effectively implement Brexit - therefore bet the house and go for a GE to achieve that. Prepare well by establishing in the minds of those that are not closed-minded that the EU is the 'bully' and that those that are seeking to derail Brexit are undermining the will of the people. There are so many remain constituencies in the South that would still vote Tory - and so many marginals that will be affected by a LibDem/Labour split vote that I think that a majority will be won.

2. If you are successful in doing that go back to the EU and be clear that we will leave the EU on the new date that will have been agreed - probably end March 2020, with or without a deal. Secure an agreement that provides to both sides an agreed period of transition to implement arrangements for that situation - I am quite confident in that scenario the EU would agree such a transition- if not we just leave and take remedial actions.

3. As part of that agreement, respect the EU's position re the protection of the SM and agree that the only practical thing to do is to have a border down the Irish Sea. Hold a referendum in NI. It is for the people of N.I. to decide. Mind you - I suggest that Ireland should be mindful of what it wishes for - N.I. is a great strain on the Treasury

4. In 2025, or thereabouts, hold an Indyref2 on independence for Scotland - it is for the people of Scotland to decide their future. From a personal viewpoint I am, regretfully, confident that if there was to be a referendum in Scotland 3 years or later after the UK has left the EU then the vote against independence will be greater than it was the first time - I suggest people holding a different view have perhaps not thought it through

But getting back to all these Nazi slurs - it is frankly disgusting and I had thought that mods had asked for it to stop

According to Katya Adler the BBC correspondent the whispers around the EU are that they think Johnson's strategy is flawed and they conclude the UK will be harmed far more by a No Deal than they will. Conclusion? The WA is not up for discussion and they are baffled by but prepared to stand by and let the UK self harm.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Comparisons between Brexiteers and Nazis aren't entirety wide of the mark, as Rees-Mogg definitely dresses as an SS Kommandant would in his down-time from work.

Herr Flick GIF incoming.

 

[Ban-jani]

Ok. You know my views on the illegality of the original referendum so put that to one side. What deal do we have a mandate for? The HOC voted in favour of triggering A50 which mandates leaving without a deal if the two sides have failed to agree one within the prescribed timescales. No deal is the only one legally mandated in A50.

The referendum was voted on for on the basis of leaving the EU with a deal. It’s all the leave side said throughout and it returned a majority vote. The referendum was a huge mistake and there was obviously the breaking of electoral law but how much that influenced the vote is unclear.

We should have had a 2nd referendum on the deal itself for the terms in which we leave also, you could argue.

That said if a vote has happened you must implement it.

 

[Rascal]

But getting back to all these Nazi slurs - it is frankly disgusting and I had thought that mods had asked for it to stop

The Nazi slurs are wrong and fucking idiotic, however whilst not justifying it the leavers use of EUSSR is also mindless stupidity and people fight fire with fire.

There is however a clear rise in far right wing populism across Europe and whilst i would not use the lazy Nazi terminology, there is definitely authoritarian fascist traits emerging not only across Europe but here in the UK. The fringes of politics have been stretched rightwards which if you understand how the Overton window works then a way of dragging it back towards the centre is by employing further left wing populist rhetoric, which is also not needed. You can see from the replies on here that Corbyn is quite often referred to as a Marxist rather than a Social Democrat. That is what happens when opinion becomes polarised, the extremes look more inviting and to use a word from the lexicon of James O'Brien what has happened is we now have the "footballification" of politics. It is ya boo rubbish and it makes the art of compromise almost impossible.

 

[mcfc1632]

I’m actually okay but thank you for your concern.

Let’s make a deal. I’ll come on here and admit you were right if Johnson suspends parliament and the EU eventually budge. I actually hope this happens to some degree, despite me not liking how he’s going to get there.

If he does it and the EU don’t budge, we leave with no deal and the economy goes to shit, will you come on here and admit I was right?

That you make that offer I am afraid only reinforces that you do not understand the situation.

I have been clear that even with a no-deal prospect you cannot force the other party to make concessions - especially when that party has been 'digging themselves into a hole' from which they now find it hard to move from.

But you simply have to have a viable no-deal contingency and the will and plans to use it even if the other party does not shift - otherwise it is not viable and they know that. It is just basic stuff - and frankly I have little interest in continuing to explain this to you.

Either you do understand but are just being obstinate and twisting things to try and save face - or you genuinely cannot grasp simple and obvious facts

Either way - there are more interesting things going on to spend time on than your unwillingness/incapability to understand Janet and John stuff

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Herr Flick GIF incoming.

"Good Remoaning"!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Snp nob head on tv saying Boris is threatening to stop water supplies to people of the uk by his actions.

That’s a new one . Water ?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Snp nob head on tv saying Boris is threatening to stop water supplies to people of the uk by his actions.

That’s a new one . Water ?

I think he's getting HS2 and H2O mixed up.

 

[George Hannah]

Ah. Not unless the appointed and unelected PM lets the Scots have their say. That will play well north of the border. So Sturgeon calls for an independence referendum and Johnson shuts them down but they hold one anyway. What happens next? Do we let the ‘referendum’ go ahead? Do we close it down? Tricky situation.

One of many ‘tricky’ situations for a minority Govt to deal with I fancy.

Hence the upcoming GE with Bojo as either the saviour of or the last hope for Brexit, he can't carry on with a majority of one including the DUP. Not that the Tories care overmuch about what happens north of the border, or north of Watford for that matter.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Snp nob head on tv saying Boris is threatening to stop water supplies to people of the uk by his actions.

That’s a new one . Water ?

Just an SNP ploy to ensure whisky is always served neat.

 

[Len Rum]

Snp nob head on tv saying Boris is threatening to stop water supplies to people of the uk by his actions.

That’s a new one . Water ?

Clean water.
Something to do with the chemicals used to purify the water that could be delayed at the border and cannot easily be stockpiled.
Don't know how big a risk it is because the Govt are not providing sufficient info on such issues.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Just an SNP ploy to ensure whisky is always served neat.

He looked like he had just woken up after drinking a barrel

Oh no here comes GINA

She loves a bit of TV fame

She should wear a cape . she is like a remainer superhero who loves to spend her money to go to courts to have tiny aspects of the UK constitution to be heard in court.

Now I like to spend my money on holidays my family and a bit of golf .

Does anyone else like spending their hard earned spare cash on constitutional matters?