Another new Brexit thread

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George Hannah said:
His intention was exactly the opposite of the result but he was doing precisely the same thing as Bojo. The hypocrisy meter is at full swing here your "time of crisis" = failure to stop "No Deal Brexit" = failure to stop "Brexit" = failure of Remainer abuse of parliamentary process = failure to overturn the result of the referendum ..... losers every time.
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Why is it hypocrisy? 22 years later is Major not allowed to realise that what he did was wrong and try to stop another Tory PM from repeating it?
 
mcfc1632 said:
Strange thing to say IMO

I was responding to someone stating that the Spanish government is going 'do something bad' to ex-pats residing there - as if it was a fact

I suggest that is pretty doubtful - given the country's reliance on the direct benefits those ex pats bring and the very large indirect benefits to the country that they get from its position as the UK's #1 holiday destination

But - heh - crack on - I can understand that the important thing about Project Fear is to keep pushing the narrative - no matter how unlikely and silly it seems

You guys need to keep this up but, for me, such narratives seem to have a whiff of WW3 immediate mass job losses etc. - it did not work then either
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I would say it's more than pretty doubtful, I go regularly, and the amount of businesses and services that rely on
expats, EU, and British, are very high. I've not read all through the latest thread that mentioned this, but I'm assuming
that it's some sort of scaremongering?
https://www.imtj.com/articles/agreement-reached-reciprocal-healthcare-british-and-eu-retirees/

So that's the health bit sorted, what are the other things the Spanish are plotting?
 
mcfc1632 said:
Strange thing to say IMO

I was responding to someone stating that the Spanish government is going 'do something bad' to ex-pats residing there - as if it was a fact

I suggest that is pretty doubtful - given the country's reliance on the direct benefits those ex pats bring and the very large indirect benefits to the country that they get from its position as the UK's #1 holiday destination

But - heh - crack on - I can understand that the important thing about Project Fear is to keep pushing the narrative - no matter how unlikely and silly it seems

You guys need to keep this up but, for me, such narratives seem to have a whiff of WW3 immediate mass job losses etc. - it did not work then either
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Citing reality is a strange concept?

At least we are at the ‘pretty doubtful’ stage which is encouraging. As for the economic benefits, which I will happily assume to be correct, it was this line of reasoning that led to ‘we will get a good deal because German car makers flog us a lot of cars’.

The problem with removing legal protections and rights is that relying on ‘good economic sense’ to do the right thing is a poor substitute. Just as the Germans flogging us a lot of cars does not trump the legal rules and regulations that govern the Single Market a future Spanish Govt may not feel the economic benefits of British or non EU immigrants trumps the political gains of introducing a more ‘hostile’ environment. After all the Tories have been doing that here for years despite the evidence of the economic benefits of immigration.

I hope we are now begining to see some of the problems inherent in leaving a legal and trading structure without giving any thought as to the consequences to people, families, businesses and indeed our very Union.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
Do you honestly believe you will get it. I have written it off long ago. No way if I live that long will I be getting my pension. They will stiff me
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I was doing some work for what is now DWP in 1996 and attended a pan-EU meeting of representatives that had involvement in the management of pension schemes. It was driven more from a 'systems' angle with people from different countries moving to reside in other countries etc. It was more departmental managers discussing matters rather than policy makers.

There was a session I remember in which there were references to the expansion of the EU and impact of countries that do not have the equivalent provisions for pensions coming into the EU. I do not remember a lot of the detail - I was there as the main IT supplier representative providing support - but I was impacted by the German representative who was very clear that the impact of German unification meant that their forecasts were that Germany's pension scheme would be effectively bust by 2010.

I immediately acted to load my final salary scheme to the maximum and I then wrote off ever getting a state pension because the measures that were discussed included means testing etc.

So I am strangely in a good place because - although receiving it will be delayed - it looks like I will actually get it

Of course - you may think that I am lying
 
Len Rum said:
Do me a favour mate.
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There’s blatantly other reasons as she’s said but again, how do you know that struggling with a new family didn’t impact the decision?

Oh, that’s right she’s a Tory so there you go, your prejudice.
 
George Hannah said:
Major still thinks he was absolutely correct to prorogue then as Bojo does now.
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And Major held a General Election. Is Johnson? Did I miss the announcement?

And the best defence, indeed the only defence, you have is that Major pulled a similar dodgy stunt to try and cover a party scandal?

At least try and mount a credible defence of Johnson’s actions.
 
Rascal said:
I understand why many on the left see that a Brexit fuelled Tory government will be a disaster for them, more unfettered neo=liberalism is not the answer to the problems we face as a nation. I accept that some may see the regulated capitalism of the EU as better than the unregulated capitalism espoused by the likes of Sajid Javid and the more neo-con Tories. They have witnessed what the Tory government has done to the nation and see the EU as a bulwark against further excess. I get it, I understand it and I definitely don't want it as I believe it to be wrong headed and only for the interests of the 1% not the many. The left has been battered into submission by the rise of neo-liberalism and its supporters in the media. We now have the ridiculous notion that people like Corbyn are Marxists, it is scaremongering and so much effort, time and money has been spent in creating the conditions for unfettered capitalism they don't want to throw it away now. That's why many on the left are scared as they see themselves under the neo-liberal yoke and all that goes with that peculiar ideology and see the EU as a safer bet than the crazy wing of the Tory party with their Hayek addiction and trickle down economic theory. Johnson is the ultimate bogeyman, he is anti democratic and a rampant capitalist, ally him with the likes of the ERG and you have a fucking nightmare administration where inequality will rise and the rich laugh their way to their Cayman Islands bank accounts. I see why many of the left would prefer the relative safety of the EU as that nightmare looms large.

I see that many on the left cannot see or hope for a Socialist future when everything is against it happening, the worm has turned and the post WW2 concensus was smashed by Thatcher thanks to her adoration of that fucking lunatic Keith Joseph and his admiration of Friedman and Hayek. They have seen the marginalisation of the left at every turn from the anti semite stuff to the Marxist appropriations and see safety in liberalism. Under these circumstances the EU is the safe port in the hurricaine that is about to smash into the nation. I Also understand that many on the left have grown up only knowing the EU and are used to its freedoms and change is always the hardest pill to swallow.

Therefore it comes down to reasons why leaving the EU is a good thing, for the right its obvious in that the goal of unfettered capitalism can be met and the Thatcherite revolution can be completed, to the right capitalism is King and nothing should stand in its way. The UK free of EU restrictions is the perfect world for the right, it can rid itself of what it sees as meddlesome EU restrictions on trade and profit can rule the world. Profit comes at a cost they will not bare as they are insulated from the effects of what they desire. For the left if leaving is to be a good thing it has to fight the whole establishment, it has to fight the vested interests and it will be a long and ardous road as everything is stacked against it from the media's scaremongering portrayal of Corbyn as a Marxist to the mindless rubbish spouted about Venezuela and other supposed Socialist failures. I can see why many on the left see it as battle they just cannot win as at every turn they hear the right wing propaganda machine whirring into action, funded by the rich for the benefit of the rich. A quick glance on here and you can see the opprobrium aimed towards Socialism and sadly I put most of it down to ignorance of Socialism and the effects of repeated untruths spouted against the left. I am no lover of Osborne but I am convinced he saw this as the outcome of the referendum and knew it would split the left as much as it would split the right, the crafty ****.

Ideally those on the left would follow the Bennite leave tradition but the weight of the media have made it virtually impossible because they are more scared of Socialism than they are of the EU and therefore to make sure unfettered capitalism wins the day, the Left must be attacked at every turn and at any cost, because the left gets in the way of corporate profits.

I do understand why people on the left are pro EU as they see it as the least worst option when faced with an overarching rush towards even more neo-liberalism and as the Tries have made no attempt to persuade them that it is not their endgame then I can not blame them for thinking that. Of course in an ideal world the left would have voted leave en masse and put their faith in Socialism and a better world, but as long as Socialism is harangued and browbeaten it aint going to happen and those who really want Brexit should have realised the counter productivity of their simplistic argument. Leave could have been done and dusted but Corbyn is a Marxist. That is how stupid politics has become.
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Thanks - very informative and detailed

Such posts are at a premium today

Does make me understand how so many left-leaning can support the EU - as part of simply being anti-tory

Still wonder about those on here that seem to wear their left- leaning credentials as a badge of honour and post as if they are specialists on the subject are not recognising the once in a lifetime opportunity to create the environment required

But anyway - big thanks
 
BobKowalski said:
And Major held a General Election. Is Johnson? Did I miss the announcement? And the best defence, indeed the only defence, you have is that Major pulled a similar dodgy stunt to try and cover a party scandal? At least try and mount a credible defence of Johnson’s actions.
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Presumably he is doing what he thinks is best for the country, in the belief that is lawful and in full accordance with parliamentary process. In the highly unlikely event the courts find otherwise he will have to face the consequences but this hysterical and utterly hypocritical squealing from Remainers who have repeatedly displayed their utter contempt for precedent and the electorate is just laughable.
 
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