I take it you missed David Cameron’s whistle stop tour round the EU kissing the arses of the presidents of Latvia and Lithuania for some minor tweaks to our membership terms and getting shown the middle finger? This is a one size fits all take it or leave offer and the British people have voted to leave it, so this is what should happen.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Another new Brexit thread
- Thread starter Ric
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
I take it you missed David Cameron’s whistle stop tour round the EU kissing the arses of the presidents of Latvia and Lithuania for some minor tweaks to our membership terms and getting shown the middle finger? This is a one size fits all take it or leave offer and the British people have voted to leave it, so this is what should happen.
I disagree.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
It is because some remainers believe (inter alia):I think it’s important that Remainers understand how their actions are being viewed by Leavers. Boris has said, and the vast majority of Leavers agree with him, that we need no deal to be on the table in order to encourage movement from the other side. So what are Remainers busy doing? Trying to tie his hands and removing that leverage from him.
a) no deal will damage us far more than it will damage them
b) the EU can live with no deal, albeit causing them significant inconvenience and hardship
c) giving it the Billy Big Bollocks is not the correct approach when negotiating with the EU
d) the EU knows/believes he is bluffing anyway, as we are pitifully ill-prepared for no deal
e) he has no mandate for no deal, or arguably at all
f) the potential consequences of it happening far outweigh any putative benefit to be derived from deploying it in negotiations
g) the EU aren't going to blink and therefore it's a futile approach
h) Johnson is a ****
and any combination thereto.
George Hannah
Well-Known Member
How so? Bad consequences do not always arise from base motives - they also happen when intentions are good. This proposition only fails if you empty the notions of good and bad of intrinsic meaning. There is no question that the values of the Enlightenment stimulated and sustained colonization as a perceived civilizing influence.Then we have polarised views on human nature.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
In light of what you've pisted there, how would you describe Johnson's disposition towards Trump?I take it you missed David Cameron’s whistle stop tour round the EU kissing the arses of the presidents of Latvia and Lithuania .
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
They made have done, albeit with other, less positive consequences, but I believe the motivations for colonisation were rooted in little else other than naked self-interest.How so? Bad consequences do not always arise from base motives - they also happen when intentions are good. This proposition only fails if you empty the notions of good and bad of intrinsic meaning. There is no question that the values of the Enlightenment stimulated and sustained colonization as a perceived civilizing influence.
Plus ca change.
So give Boris Johnson what he wants, then prevent no deal after the negotiations have failed.It is because some remainers believe (inter alia):
a) no deal will damage us far more than it will damage them
b) the EU can live with no deal, albeit causing them significant inconvenience and hardship
c) giving it the Billy Big Bollocks is not the correct approach when negotiating with the EU
d) the EU knows/believes he is bluffing anyway, as we are pitifully ill-prepared for no deal
e) he has no mandate for no deal, or arguably at all
f) the potential consequences of it happening far outweigh any putative benefit to be derived from deploying it in negotiations
g) the EU aren't going to blink and therefore it's a futile approach
h) Johnson is a ****
and any combination thereto.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
In light of what you've pisted there, how would you describe Johnson's disposition towards Trump?
I don't understand why anyone would think that Trump & others, imposing conditions on us, is better than any EU conditions we have to put up with.
Unless they are politically in favour of Trump & see it as a good thing.
Surely nobody actually believes he is just going to give us a favourable trade deal, with nothing in return ?
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
How?So give Boris Johnson what he wants, then prevent no deal after the negotiations have failed.
I thought he made it clear he disagreed with Trump on trade, Iran, climate change and the need to protect bio-diversity?In light of what you've pisted there, how would you describe Johnson's disposition towards Trump?
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
Did Cameron publicly agree with the EU on everything?I thought he made it clear he disagreed with Trump on trade, Iran, climate change and the need to protect bio-diversity?
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
How so? Bad consequences do not always arise from base motives - they also happen when intentions are good. This proposition only fails if you empty the notions of good and bad of intrinsic meaning. There is no question that the values of the Enlightenment stimulated and sustained colonization as a perceived civilizing influence.
I'm sure Reece Mogg would agree.
Perhaps one day, when he gets the country sorted, we can do a bit more of it.
National Service would help.
If Remainers believe they can rush legislation through this week to take no deal off the table, then they can do this in October after the negotiations have been concluded?How?
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
It's called taking back control, and giving it away again.I don't understand why anyone would think that Trump & others, imposing conditions on us, is better than any EU conditions we have to put up with.
Unless they are politically in favour of Trump & see it as a good thing.
Surely nobody actually believes he is just going to give us a favourable trade deal, with nothing in return ?
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I agree with that analysis from 'Remainers' and it would be cutting it mighty fine, given the potential consequences; but then again, I'm no Mike Ashley.If Remainers believe they can rush legislation through this week to take no deal off the table, then they can do this in October after the negotiations have been concluded?
I was being told that we could have a different relationship with the EU if we wanted one, and Cameron’s attempt at a re-negotiation proved that isn’t the case. We sign up to a federal Europe or we leave, and we voted to leave so that’s what should happen.Did Cameron publicly agree with the EU on everything?
It would remove the suspicion from Leavers that Remainers are in fact trying to scupper Boris Johnson’s chances of securing an improved deal, and allow the PM to negotiate with the leverage he feels he needs. Unless, of course, Remainers are in fact trying to scupper Boris Johnson’s chances of getting an improved deal because they don’t want to leave.I'm not sure I agree with that analysis from 'Remainers' and it would be cutting it mighty fine, given the potential consequences; but then again, I'm no Mike Ashley.
Rascal
El Presidente
Do people want to be part of a federal superstate? Almost certainly not.
I most certainly do, and the referendum never gave us the option to vote for it.
A federal superstate based on the USA model would be perfect. An EU elected President, a fully democratic EU parliament, a system of state parliaments based on the regions, EU armed forces, a powerful central bank, a single currency, freedom of movement across the EU with a hard external border, an EU immigration points based system, universal EU healthcare, a single tax system, a unified education process, a single EU welfare state, integrated transport links and a focus on growth across the EU not just small parts of it. Luxembourg to be the superstate capital with other capital cities reduced to state capital status, freedoms for disparate minorities protected by EU law, EU wide trade unions, a coming together of peoples from different backgrounds who still have some autonomy over local affairs, EU wide political groupings and a proper EU constitution and supreme court.
In fact it would be making the EU everything the UK currently is and has been for hundreds of years and just like the English, Scots, Welsh and N Irish identify as being British, then those same people along with the French, the Germans, the Slovaks, the Poles, the Finns, the Estonians, the Dutch etc would all in time identify as Europeans.
It could be the greatest Democracy the world has ever seen, but fish.
I fear this road leads to the rise of the far right in an attempt to defend the nation state. In fact, this is already happening across the EU today, and is one of the main reasons I voted to leave.I most certainly do, and the referendum never gave us the option to vote for it.
A federal superstate based on the USA model would be perfect. An EU elected President, a fully democratic EU parliament, a system of state parliaments based on the regions, EU armed forces, a powerful central bank, a single currency, freedom of movement across the EU with a hard external border, an EU immigration points based system, universal EU healthcare, a single tax system, a unified education process, a single EU welfare state, integrated transport links and a focus on growth across the EU not just small parts of it. Luxembourg to be the superstate capital with other capital cities reduced to state capital status, freedoms for disparate minorities protected by EU law, EU wide trade unions, a coming together of peoples from different backgrounds who still have some autonomy over local affairs, EU wide political groupings and a proper EU constitution and supreme court.
In fact it would be making the EU everything the UK currently is and has been for hundreds of years and just like the English, Scots, Welsh and N Irish identify as being British, then those same people along with the French, the Germans, the Slovaks, the Poles, the Finns, the Estonians, the Dutch etc would all in time identify as Europeans.
It could be the greatest Democracy the world has ever seen, but fish.
hilts
Well-Known Member
I blame you.
I am sorry I let you down:-)
- Status
- Not open for further replies.