Another new Brexit thread

[Rascal]

Don't be silly, look at the figures the last few years. I am not saying they couldn't be a little better, but they could certainly be a lot worse and they most definitely will be if the three stooges, Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott get in. It will be catastrophic for UK plc and especially for Small and Medium sized businesses.

Why?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Why?

Lets just say this is the man who once described his ambition in politics as overthrowing capitalism! Do I have to explain it more to you? Best we leave it there me thinks. Have a good day.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Here we go again.

Chippy my mate, just because you keep posting this stuff, it doesn't make it true.

I post things which are true and opinions based on things which are true. Your constant denials don't make it untrue.

• You assert than McDonnell is a Leninist, not a Marxist.That is your opinion. I am stating the fact, that McDonnell says he is a Marxist. This is not my opinion, it is what he says. That he says it is a fact. It is not untrue.
• He said he wants insurrection - violent uprising. This is a fact. He said it. It is not untrue.
• He described mob violence as the best of his movement. Again a fact.
• He said of the 2008 crash which brought misery to millions for a decade, that this is something he's been waiting for. This is on record. It is a fact.
• He was fired from the GLC for his fiscal irresponsibility

These are not opinions Rascal, these are facts.

The reality is, unless this leopard radically changes its spots (and do they ever?) then we can expect more of this if he's in power. Only then he'll be able to wreak the damage to the capitalist system he is so desperate to destroy. For he is a Marxist, or if you insist, a Lenninist ;-)

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

The FT just last week wrote a piece on Labour's spending commitments and they amounted to £50bn extra required per year. (This doesn't include the planned nationalisations).

Because of the way their taxation plans work and to make sure they adhere to their fiscal credibility rule to balance the deficit in 5 years, taxes will have to go up for everyone, even the lowest paid.

When will they communicate this fact to the public?

Are you ready to pay more?

Why do you think that Private companies keep hold of businesses like Water / rail / Gas / Electric..... its because they are profitable (if they're not they just hand them back anyway)..... renationalising them won't make them unprofitable.

 

[FlemishDuck]

I often see British posters generally spit down on anything associated with socialism just because, i don't really get it because in youre average "social-democratic mixed economy" many specific tenets of socialism/marxism are as much a factual part of daily life as specific tenets of free market capitalism. The reality is that "no extreme system survives the test of society", radical capitalism is as unpracticle within slow changing social democracy's as radical marxism but both have many underlying value's that are succesfully implemented in a "less extreme form".

Although, i get there is a trend of denuciation of anything left by association to the worst example's of failure in extremism. Again though, these ideological and practicle example's of extremism also exist on the right, and it must be noted that "neither they like to be denounced by association to the worst examples". I guess ... if youre all to willing to denounce leftist ideology as "too extreme to work" youre own views are just as much open to be denounced based on extremism.

There is always a more moderate way to aproach any contemporary ideoligy, be it conservative, pogressive, socialist or green. In political terms moderates of any ideoligy can always justify that by "doing something even if few is better than nothing". But in terms of political languaghe it cannot be put more extreme that any mere ideological bend held by a person should result in the country burning down by the historicly most insane precedent by which it can be done?

Maybe if people would keep it more nuanced and real they'd have a more realistic and nuanced debate, instead of looking at politics as a partisan boxing ring where foremost social prestige should be gathered by "particularly eloquent" denouncements. thats @people who think they need to blanket pee on any "left wing ideoligy" as if proven unworkable.

 

[urban genie]

Don't be silly, look at the figures the last few years. I am not saying they couldn't be a little better, but they could certainly be a lot worse and they most definitely will be if the three stooges, Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott get in. It will be catastrophic for UK plc and especially for Small and Medium sized businesses.

Job loses, standards of living falling, education institutiin having staff have to buy equipment (something I have experience of), the pound worth practically fuck all.

I judge what I see as peoples value and worth and the cost to the majority of society not the top enders.

Financially the country is terrible for the populace

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I was trying to keep it simple.

Johnson resigns. Does the Queen appoint another Tory as PM with no majority, or invite Corbyn, or someone else with the confidence of the House? (Johnson's brother would be a fun choice)

Presumably whoever is head of the largest party is asked if they can form a government.
If not, then the leader of the second largest party is asked.

Curiously, the position of Prime Minister doesn't appear to be codified anywhere, and the PM is in cabinet by virtue of the other posts that are held.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Can anyone explain how Johnson can just put down a motion with a 50% majority for a GE when the Fixed Term Parliaments Act lays down the law and says "Parliament cannot otherwise be dissolved"?

Because you can table a law which is an exception to another law.

It seems odd, but Parliament can override itself. Sovereignty!

 

[Chippy_boy]

Why do you think that Private companies keep hold of businesses like Water / rail / Gas / Electric..... its because they are profitable (if they're not they just hand them back anyway)..... renationalising them won't make them unprofitable.

And where will the money come from to buy the shares off the shareholders in those companies? The utility companies have market capitalizations of billions of pounds *each*.

Where will Labour get these billions from?

That muppett McDonnell says he'll pay for electricity nationalisation by issuing government backed bonds to the shareholders in lieu of their shares. Well that's great isn't it, magic money from the money tree. No, it's more debt and more debt interest and more pressure to increase taxes. And where will the money come from to buy back these bonds? More debt or money printing, both of which leading to rising inflation.

Tick, tock, tick, tock. The "ruin the UK economy" clock ticks loudly in the background.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Because you can table a law which is an exception to another law.

It seems odd, but Parliament can override itself. Sovereignty!

But there are checks and balances.

In order to trigger a GE, if Johnson were to get a 2/3rd majority then he's good to go.
However to go down the new law route, although it would only need a majority of 1, it would still be subject to amendments by MPs - requiring a specific date, for example - and it could still be amended or rejected altogether by the House of Lords. New legislation requires parliamentary scrutiny and approval. It's actually a sensible system.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

And where will the money come from to buy the shares off the shareholders in those companies? The utility companies have market capitalizations of billions of pounds *each*.

Where will Labour get these billions from?

That muppett McDonnell says he'll pay for electricity nationalisation by issuing government backed bonds to the shareholders in lieu of their shares. Well that's great isn't it, magic money from the money tree. No, it's more debt and more debt interest and more pressure to increase taxes.

Don’t be silly do you think McDonnell and his cronies are going to pay for these national companies.

When they say renationalise what they mean is take them from The shareholders .

The shareholders will get nothing as he will argue that water and electricity that belongs to the people and therefore he is justified in just taking it.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Job loses, standards of living falling, education institutiin having staff have to buy equipment (something I have experience of), the pound worth practically fuck all.

I judge what I see as peoples value and worth and the cost to the majority of society not the top enders.

Financially the country is terrible for the populace

I simply don't believe it's that bad from my experience.

Don’t be silly do you think McDonnell and his cronies are going to pay for these national companies.

When they say renationalise what they mean is take them from The shareholders .

The shareholders will get nothing as he will argue that water and electricity that belongs to the people and therefore he is justified in just taking it.

That would be catastrophic for the stock market.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Don’t be silly do you think McDonnell and his cronies are going to pay for these national companies.

When they say renationalise what they mean is take them from The shareholders .

The shareholders will get nothing as he will argue that water and electricity that belongs to the people and therefore he is justified in just taking it.

It's a frightening prospect.

If anyone has a parent with a (say) £500,000 house, how long do they think McDonnell it will take before McDonnell drops inheritence tax back down to £300,000 or lower? Kerrching - another £80,000 in tax for his spending spree.

People talk about them only being in for 5 years. How long will it take you to get your £80,000 back? Guess what, you're NEVER getting it back.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

But there are checks and balances.

In order to trigger a GE, if Johnson were to get a 2/3rd majority then he's good to go.
However to go down the new law route, although it would only need a majority of 1, it would still be subject to amendments by MPs - requiring a specific date, for example - and it could still be amended or rejected altogether by the House of Lords. New legislation requires parliamentary scrutiny and approval. It's actually a sensible system.

Yes, that's the check on it - it will get amended into the ground. It would definitely have to state a date.
I doubt the HoL will look well on it, and will probably reject it twice.

 

[west didsblue]

Now that the Conservatives are well on their way to self immolation it's time this shitshow was sorted out once and for all
- Vote of no confidence
- Government of National Unity. Don't care who's PM
- Request extension for purposes of 2nd ref
- 2nd ref - May's Deal v Remain
- Election on same day as 2nd ref, assuming enough Tories go along with it.
- Whoever wins election has to implement 2nd ref - revoke or leave
- All done and dusted - tea and medals

 

[FlemishDuck]

Don’t be silly do you think McDonnell and his cronies are going to pay for these national companies.

When they say renationalise what they mean is take them from The shareholders .

The shareholders will get nothing as he will argue that water and electricity that belongs to the people and therefore he is justified in just taking it.

It's not hard to use national law and certain tax scheme's to motivate the sellout of private assets to goverment. Indeed share price typicly is in function of company profits which can be depressed trough tax.

In itself, nationalisation can be viable, in fact more "democratic" than privitization. What actually tends to matter is the effeciency of management of any public company.
It is actually also possible to "have nationalised sectors be managed by private company's" which is an interresting concept given general criticism against nationalisation. It begs to question: if the crux of the matter is competitive management why should ownership nessecarily be private? There would be plenty of motivation for the manager and the employee's of private firm utilizing goverment assets to do so effeciently if their fee was variable depending on such performance.

As a proponent of a gradual change to "direct economic democracy" and "private management of a overal collectivly owned economy", i think what matters more are the rules that govern a goverment owned industry or sector. Otoh, in many representative democracy's party's seem interrested to retain the abilety to appoint rather than letting competition provide it's managers.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Now that the Conservatives are well on their way to self immolation it's time this shitshow was sorted out once and for all
- Vote of no confidence
- Government of National Unity. Don't care who's PM
- Request extension for purposes of 2nd ref
- 2nd ref - May's Deal v Remain
- Election on same day as 2nd ref, assuming enough Tories go along with it.
- Whoever wins election has to implement 2nd ref - revoke or leave
- All done and dusted - tea and medals

Presumably the 6th point is unenforceable, which is problematic.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It's not hard to use national law and certain tax scheme's to motivate the sellout of private assets to goverment. Indeed share price typicly is in function of company profits which can be depressed trough tax.

In itself, nationalisation can be viable, in fact more "democratic" than privitization. What actually tends to matter is the effeciency of management of any public company.
It is actually also possible to "have nationalised sectors be managed by private company's" which is an interresting concept given general criticism against nationalisation. It begs to question: if the crux of the matter is competitive management why should ownership nessecarily be private? There would be plenty of motivation for the manager and the employee's of private firm utilizing goverment assets to do so effeciently if their fee was variable depending on such performance.

As a proponent of a gradual change to "direct deconomic democracy", i think what matters more are the rules that govern a goverment owned industry or sector. Otoh, in many representative democracy's party's seem interrested to retain the abilety to appoint rather than letting competition provide it's managers.

Yeah it was called the private finance initiative PFI and guess what we are still paying for that failing piece of genius.

 

[west didsblue]

Presumably the 6th point is unenforceable, which is problematic.

Make 2nd ref binding rather than advisory

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Now that the Conservatives are well on their way to self immolation it's time this shitshow was sorted out once and for all
- Vote of no confidence
- Government of National Unity. Don't care who's PM
- Request extension for purposes of 2nd ref
- 2nd ref - May's Deal v Remain
- Election on same day as 2nd ref, assuming enough Tories go along with it.
- Whoever wins election has to implement 2nd ref - revoke or leave
- All done and dusted - tea and medals

Anything, anything that brings it to an end. Please .