Another new Brexit thread

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I am saying a left wing government delivers it better than a government in hoc to capitalism. Trickle down economics, the great dream of neo-liberalism has failed the nation miserably and we have the situation where the 6th richest nation on the planet is one of the most unequal, where thousands are homeless, foodbanks are necessary, the disabled have their welfare cut, people are sanctioned for being a minute late for an appointment, getting a doctors appointment is like getting a derby ticket, nurses have to pay to be educated, Junior doctors are worked to the bone, teachers are leaving the profession in droves, schools have to ask parents to buy toilet rolls and books, the roads are full of potholes, the army is the smallest since Napoleonic times, the navy could sail on Platt lane boating lake,unions are powerless, there is a lack of police, fire stations are closed, the young leave Uni with huge debt, rents are ridiculous, people cant save for a deposit for home, the minimum wage is a joke, pensioners will be forced to pay to watch TV, libraries are being closed, local government is falling apart, social services are on their arse, the NHS is underfunded, school buildings have leaking roofs, the rail network is laughable, heavy industry is non existant, the high streets are like ghost towns, knife crime is out of control, drug abuse is rampant, mental health provision is virtually nil, universal credit is a failure, the car industry has gone, we don't build ships anymore, there is not enough homes built, the ambulance service is outsourced, prisons are schools for criminals, the environment is fucked, the oil boom money was wasted, people have to work longer than ever, the arts are suffering, museums are closing, Parliament Is falling down, waiting times in hospital are up, child poverty is rising, pensioner poverty is up, child benefit cut, tax credits gone, the buses are a mess, the northern powerhouse a pipe dream, VAT is up, scientific research is down and that is just of the top of my head.

But tax cuts give you choice...………….apparently!!!!!!!

When you take the above into consideration is not exactly a ringing endorsement of capitalism is it, in fact it is a disaster for the nation unless you have wealth and the above does not matter because you are above society, you are an individual and you matter most, the people can go and fuck themselves as I want a new Porsche.

As Marx hypothesised..... Capitalism eventually fails when the people don't have enough money to purchase the product of their labour.

 

[Vic]

And for those who might wonder why that possibility of a confirmatory referendum was dropped and we ended up with a straight yes/no vote... (and especially for those here who think they knew all they needed to know and thus claim that all leave voters knew all they needed to know):

"A. Creating an exit plan that makes sense and which all reasonable people could unite around seems an almost insuperable task. Eurosceptic groups have been divided for years about many of the basic policy and political questions. An interesting attempt at such a plan is FLEXCIT based on using the EEA as a transition phase – remaining in the Single Market and retaining a (modified) version of free movement – while a better deal, inevitably taking years, is negotiated. This is an attempt to take the Single Market out of the referendum debate. I will discuss the merits of this idea another time when I’ve studied it more.

"B. Even if one succeeded, the sheer complexity of leaving would involve endless questions of detail that cannot be answered in such a plan even were it to be 20,000 pages long, and the longer it is the more errors are likely. On top of the extremely complex policy issues is a feedback loop – constructing such a plan depends partly on inherently uncertain assumptions about what is politically sellable in a referendum, making it even harder to rally support behind a plan. Further, in market research I have done it is clear that 15 years after the euro debate the general public know nothing more about the EU institutions than they did then. Less than 1% have heard of the EEA. Few MPs know the difference between the EEA and EFTA or the intricacies of the WTO rules. The idea that the public could be effectively educated about such things in the time we have seems unlikely.

"C. There is much to be gained by swerving the whole issue. ..."

Dominic Cummings, a year before the referendum.

https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

All these statements of doom and gloom about the UK resulting from capitalism is just nonsense and tedious. Sure things could be inproved further in many areas, but i really think you should check the figures out before you get on your soap box and moan about what is more likely to be actually your politically biased perception of things. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow for socialists but in reality things are better now than they ever have been in most respects for the majority of society in the UK. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...asuresofnationalwellbeingdashboard/2018-04-25

 

[Vic]

Cameron didn't think much of the renegotiation then second referendum idea (and sussed Johnson's motive of backing a vote to leave to boost his chances of leading the Conservative party).

You see, you can blame Cameron but it all falls at Johnson's door.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea

 

[stonerblue]

Which system would you replace it with?

Universal basic income.

 

[Neville Kneville]

All these statements of doom and gloom about the UK resulting from capitalism is just nonsense and tedious. Sure things could be inproved further in many areas, but i really think you should check the figures out before you get on your soap box and moan about what is more likely to be actually your politically biased perception of things. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow for socialists but in reality things are better now than they ever have been in most respects for the majority of society in the UK. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...asuresofnationalwellbeingdashboard/2018-04-25

Haha

Nice 1

 

[Neville Kneville]

And for those who might wonder why that possibility of a confirmatory referendum was dropped and we ended up with a straight yes/no vote... (and especially for those here who think they knew all they needed to know and thus claim that all leave voters knew all they needed to know):

"A. Creating an exit plan that makes sense and which all reasonable people could unite around seems an almost insuperable task. Eurosceptic groups have been divided for years about many of the basic policy and political questions. An interesting attempt at such a plan is FLEXCIT based on using the EEA as a transition phase – remaining in the Single Market and retaining a (modified) version of free movement – while a better deal, inevitably taking years, is negotiated. This is an attempt to take the Single Market out of the referendum debate. I will discuss the merits of this idea another time when I’ve studied it more.

"B. Even if one succeeded, the sheer complexity of leaving would involve endless questions of detail that cannot be answered in such a plan even were it to be 20,000 pages long, and the longer it is the more errors are likely. On top of the extremely complex policy issues is a feedback loop – constructing such a plan depends partly on inherently uncertain assumptions about what is politically sellable in a referendum, making it even harder to rally support behind a plan. Further, in market research I have done it is clear that 15 years after the euro debate the general public know nothing more about the EU institutions than they did then. Less than 1% have heard of the EEA. Few MPs know the difference between the EEA and EFTA or the intricacies of the WTO rules. The idea that the public could be effectively educated about such things in the time we have seems unlikely.

"C. There is much to be gained by swerving the whole issue. ..."

Dominic Cummings, a year before the referendum.

https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

That's before he thought of D: Lie about it.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Cameron didn't think much of the renegotiation then second referendum idea (and sussed Johnson's motive of backing a vote to leave to boost his chances of leading the Conservative party).

You see, you can blame Cameron but it all falls at Johnson's door.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea

So both Boris & Farage wanted a 2nd referendum, before the first one came in, yet now claim it would be undemocratic.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

And for those who might wonder why that possibility of a confirmatory referendum was dropped and we ended up with a straight yes/no vote... (and especially for those here who think they knew all they needed to know and thus claim that all leave voters knew all they needed to know):

"A. Creating an exit plan that makes sense and which all reasonable people could unite around seems an almost insuperable task. Eurosceptic groups have been divided for years about many of the basic policy and political questions. An interesting attempt at such a plan is FLEXCIT based on using the EEA as a transition phase – remaining in the Single Market and retaining a (modified) version of free movement – while a better deal, inevitably taking years, is negotiated. This is an attempt to take the Single Market out of the referendum debate. I will discuss the merits of this idea another time when I’ve studied it more.

"B. Even if one succeeded, the sheer complexity of leaving would involve endless questions of detail that cannot be answered in such a plan even were it to be 20,000 pages long, and the longer it is the more errors are likely. On top of the extremely complex policy issues is a feedback loop – constructing such a plan depends partly on inherently uncertain assumptions about what is politically sellable in a referendum, making it even harder to rally support behind a plan. Further, in market research I have done it is clear that 15 years after the euro debate the general public know nothing more about the EU institutions than they did then. Less than 1% have heard of the EEA. Few MPs know the difference between the EEA and EFTA or the intricacies of the WTO rules. The idea that the public could be effectively educated about such things in the time we have seems unlikely.

"C. There is much to be gained by swerving the whole issue. ..."

Dominic Cummings, a year before the referendum.

https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

In a sense that is fair enough. If you were to hold a public vote on whether to have nuclear power for instance, you wouldn't expect every voter to know how a reactor works, just the main dangers / benefits. I feel we were given plenty of education on the dangers and benefits of brexit - even the ones that aren't real. I'm not suggesting Cummings didn't have an agenda or bias btw, but on this occasion you may require a smaller tin-foil hat.

 

[lust overlord]

So both Boris & Farage wanted a 2nd referendum, before the first one came in, yet now claim it would be undemocratic.

Of course,because they are hypocrites.
As are most of the rest of the remain and leaver mps.
Most of us have been forced,by circumstance,to choose which hypocrites we agree with,on this one topic,and will vote accordingly.
All the while arguing that we,the voters,aren't being hypocritical.

Stupid isn't it.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Cameron didn't think much of the renegotiation then second referendum idea (and sussed Johnson's motive of backing a vote to leave to boost his chances of leading the Conservative party).

You see, you can blame Cameron but it all falls at Johnson's door.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...dicules-boris-johnsons-second-referendum-idea

More tears and conspiracy theories. If Parliament had implemented brexit by March, there is no way 'no deal' or someone previously considered a comedy figure (Boris) would be anywhere to be seen now. If we'd have quickly done a soft Brexit rather than try to thwart it or come up with a deal so bad we'd all just decide to remain Boris and no deal would not be a thing. I blame remain parliamentarians for this as much as the ERG. Both are playing a dangerous game of high stakes poker.

 

[FlemishDuck]

All these statements of doom and gloom about the UK resulting from capitalism is just nonsense and tedious. Sure things could be inproved further in many areas, but i really think you should check the figures out before you get on your soap box and moan about what is more likely to be actually your politically biased perception of things. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow for socialists but in reality things are better now than they ever have been in most respects for the majority of society in the UK. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...asuresofnationalwellbeingdashboard/2018-04-25

Well there are also things to note about these statistics and how to interpret them. when i look at OECD figures for what regards a relevant indicator like "social inequality" then the UK hardly is the best student in western Europe, but in relative terms of things not being that bad sure one can look at South Africa and say "well thats really fooked up" for an OECD country.

 

[lust overlord]

More tears and conspiracy theories. If Parliament had implemented brexit by March, there is no way 'no deal' or someone previously considered a comedy figure (Boris) would be anywhere to be seen now. If we'd have quickly done a soft Brexit rather than try to thwart it or come up with a deal so bad we'd all just decide to remain Boris and no deal would not be a thing. I blame remain parliamentarians for this as much as the ERG. Both are playing a dangerous game of high stakes poker.

Yeah.

And ultimately,whoever gains from it all will still fuck over a large proportion of the public.

Choose your poison.

 

[Rascal]

All these statements of doom and gloom about the UK resulting from capitalism is just nonsense and tedious. Sure things could be inproved further in many areas, but i really think you should check the figures out before you get on your soap box and moan about what is more likely to be actually your politically biased perception of things. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow for socialists but in reality things are better now than they ever have been in most respects for the majority of society in the UK. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...asuresofnationalwellbeingdashboard/2018-04-25

The Tory fall back position of things are better than they have ever been, why not use the line that things are nowhere near as good as they could be.

They use the more people in work than ever line, easily refuted by one simple fact, there are more people alive than there has ever been, which means we need more teachers, more barbers, more undertakers, more bus drivers, more dinner ladies, more window cleaners, more taxi drivers

I know the truth is a bitter pill to swallow for Tories, but the truth matters and the truth will out.

 

[Saddleworth2]

In a sense that is fair enough. If you were to hold a public vote on whether to have nuclear power for instance, you wouldn't expect every voter to know how a reactor works, just the main dangers / benefits. I feel we were given plenty of education on the dangers and benefits of brexit - even the ones that aren't real. I'm not suggesting Cummings didn't have an agenda or bias btw, but on this occasion you may require a smaller tin-foil hat.

Run those benefits of Brexit past me again that we had plenty of education about.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Run those benefits of Brexit past me again that we had plenty of education about.

Surely you are not saying we've just had the drawbacks endlessly shoved down our throats?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Surely you are not saying we've just had the drawbacks endlessly shoved down our throats?

No, i’m saying there was no education on the benefits of Brexit as you claim. How could there be as none exist. In place we had a raft of lies.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

In a sense that is fair enough. If you were to hold a public vote on whether to have nuclear power for instance, you wouldn't expect every voter to know how a reactor works, just the main dangers / benefits. I feel we were given plenty of education on the dangers and benefits of brexit - even the ones that aren't real. I'm not suggesting Cummings didn't have an agenda or bias btw, but on this occasion you may require a smaller tin-foil hat.

We absolutely were not given enough education on the benefits or dangers. In fact we were given hardly any

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

No, i’m saying there was no education on the benefits of Brexit as you claim. How could there be as none exist. In place we had a raft of lies.

You think there are none, which is fine - free country and all that. Other people (about half of them) don't agree.

 

[bluethrunthru]

That sounds like the sort of duplicity in high office that might lead Parliament to vote to revoke and ask the EU to take that vote as the only process needed for us to remain.

standard operating procedure from a group who now admit that they want a 15th Oct GE because it will restrict the student vote. Students will be back at uni and they turned out in numbers for Labour in 2017. Most will be registered to vote at home and won't travel back from Uni just to vote - they are that scared of the youth vote !