Another new Brexit thread

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George Hannah said:
Javid on Marr just said the government's opponents are trying "to kneecap" them - interesting description
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I watched a lot of words come out of his mouth - all of which were chosen to avoid answering the question.

They are clearly under instruction to use words and phrases that weaponise the whole debate - like kneecap, like war, like die in a ditch - because it appeals to a certain demographic in the Leave group.
 
George Hannah said:
"Boris to Paralyse the EU!"

I thought it was the other way round!

"He will refuse to appoint a new European Commissioner if he is forced to extend our membership beyond October 31.
This will mean they are not legally constituted because it must have 28 commissioners, one from each member state.
And if they try to reduce the number, Mr Johnson will use his power of veto to block it.
That will leave the EU unable to carry out any useful function and stop colluding with Remainer MPs to thwart the referendum result."
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Disgraceful, if true. What an embarrassment we've become.
 
George Hannah said:
"Boris to Paralyse the EU!"

I thought it was the other way round!

"He will refuse to appoint a new European Commissioner if he is forced to extend our membership beyond October 31.
This will mean they are not legally constituted because it must have 28 commissioners, one from each member state.
And if they try to reduce the number, Mr Johnson will use his power of veto to block it.
That will leave the EU unable to carry out any useful function and stop colluding with Remainer MPs to thwart the referendum result."
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Can't see this silliness being true, but if it is I suppose it should appeal to people like Gina Miller who seem to love these sort of obscure points of law.
 
George Hannah said:
but you think everything Boris does is a disgraceful embarrassment - by definition
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
That's simply not true. Some of the stuff he does is simply cunty.
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I think it's worth bearing in mind that Boris has actually done very little. Besides the prorogation thing and verbal exchanges in parliament nothing of note has actually happened. Mostly we are just being whipped up by media hysteria fuelled by his opponents. I don't doubt BJ is a dodgy character, but it's hard sometimes to discern his actual intentions from the hype generated by the permanently offended types.
 
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The Martyrdom of St Boris proceeds apace - another part of the cunning Cummings plan
 
George Hannah said:
"Boris to Paralyse the EU!"

I thought it was the other way round!

"He will refuse to appoint a new European Commissioner if he is forced to extend our membership beyond October 31.
This will mean they are not legally constituted because it must have 28 commissioners, one from each member state.
And if they try to reduce the number, Mr Johnson will use his power of veto to block it.
That will leave the EU unable to carry out any useful function and stop colluding with Remainer MPs to thwart the referendum result."
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Alternatively, the EU could enforce article 7 against a deliberately obstructive state and remove the UK's voting rights, allowing the Commission to operate with 27 members.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Alternatively, the EU could enforce article 7 against a deliberately obstructive state and remove the UK's voting rights, allowing the Commission to operate with 27 members.
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So another empty threat then from Johnson.
The Cummings master plan really needed a bit more thinking through.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Alternatively, the EU could enforce article 7 against a deliberately obstructive state and remove the UK's voting rights, allowing the Commission to operate with 27 members.
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I don't think Boris delaying appointing a Commisioner in these circumstances would fall within the provisions of Article 7 as Wiki explains

Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union is a procedure in the treaties of the European Union (EU) to suspend certain rights from a member state. While rights can be suspended, there is no mechanism to expel a member. The procedure is covered by TEU Article 7. It would be enacted where the EU identifies a member persistently breaching the EU's founding values (respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities), as outlined in TEU Article 2.

The European Council can vote to suspend any rights of membership, such as voting and representation as outlined above. Identifying the breach requires unanimity (excluding the state concerned), but sanctions require only a qualified majority.[1] The state in question would still be bound by the obligations treaties, and the Council acting by majority may alter or lift such sanctions.

Background
Article 7
1. On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the European Commission, the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2. Before making such a determination, the Council shall hear the Member State in question and may address recommendations to it, acting in accordance with the same procedure.
The Council shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.

2. The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2, after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations.

3. Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.

The obligations of the Member State in question under this Treaty shall in any case continue to be binding on that State.

4. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide subsequently to vary or revoke measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed.

5. The voting arrangements applying to the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council for the purposes of this Article are laid down in Article 354 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
– Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union

Article 2
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.
– Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union

Following the fall of the Berlin Wall the EU began to consider enlargement to the former Eastern Bloc states. With concerns over the EU's ability to intervene where its core principles and values were violated, there was a desire to introduce some mechanism before enlargement to those states took place. This came to be via the Treaty of Amsterdam which allowed the suspension of rights of a member state which breached the EU's values under Article 2.[2]
 
George Hannah said:
I don't think Boris delaying appointing a Commisioner in these circumstances would fall within the provisions of Article 7 as Wiki explains

Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union is a procedure in the treaties of the European Union (EU) to suspend certain rights from a member state. While rights can be suspended, there is no mechanism to expel a member. The procedure is covered by TEU Article 7. It would be enacted where the EU identifies a member persistently breaching the EU's founding values (respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities), as outlined in TEU Article 2.

The European Council can vote to suspend any rights of membership, such as voting and representation as outlined above. Identifying the breach requires unanimity (excluding the state concerned), but sanctions require only a qualified majority.[1] The state in question would still be bound by the obligations treaties, and the Council acting by majority may alter or lift such sanctions.

Background
Article 7
1. On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the European Commission, the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2. Before making such a determination, the Council shall hear the Member State in question and may address recommendations to it, acting in accordance with the same procedure.
The Council shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.

2. The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2, after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations.

3. Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.

The obligations of the Member State in question under this Treaty shall in any case continue to be binding on that State.

4. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide subsequently to vary or revoke measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed.

5. The voting arrangements applying to the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council for the purposes of this Article are laid down in Article 354 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
– Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union

Article 2
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.
– Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union

Following the fall of the Berlin Wall the EU began to consider enlargement to the former Eastern Bloc states. With concerns over the EU's ability to intervene where its core principles and values were violated, there was a desire to introduce some mechanism before enlargement to those states took place. This came to be via the Treaty of Amsterdam which allowed the suspension of rights of a member state which breached the EU's values under Article 2.[2]
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Respect for the rule of law would cover it mate, the Commission is the balance of power for the smaller states and the prime enforcer of EU laws.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Respect for the rule of law would cover it mate, the Commission is the balance of power for the smaller states and the prime enforcer of EU laws.
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You neglected to notice the key phrase 'serious and persistent breaches' but it probably wouldn't get that far, I think Hungary will just scupper the new extension request and we'll be out.
 
George Hannah said:
You neglected to notice the key phrase 'serious and persistent breaches' but it probably wouldn't get that far, I think Hungary will just scupper the new extension request and we'll be out.
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Attempting to disable the EC would be a serious breach.
 
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