Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

I was thinking more in terms of % than numbers but If I was to pick a number I'd go 60/40 in favor of remain and bare in mind that if they do get into a position to offer a 2nd referendum then they would have been voted in so there will be an appetite for it

I also think that in any future campaign Leave would struggle, mainly because they would be campaigning on no-deal this time rather than, what turned out to be, a wish-list of possibilities which have proved to be un-deliverable

I remind you of the Cummings blog in 2015 where he advocated precisely that the leave campaign should "swerve" round those undeliverable possibilities.

 

[1.618034]

I remind you of the Cummings blog in 2015 where he advocated precisely that the leave campaign should "swerve" round those undeliverable possibilities.

This one?

https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

 

[Vic]

That’s not necessarily accurate. Article 50 says that a member state can leave in accordance with its own constitutional arrangements. There is much scope for argument that a country cannot be taken unlawfully (in terms of its own constitutional arrangements) out of the EU. The principle that you can’t benefit from your own wrongful act is of course one that is recognised in our own law as well as in other legal systems. The law of the UK is that Boris is compelled to seek an extension in the circumstances envisaged in the Act, and as Lord Sumption said last night there doesn’t seem to be any wiggle room in the Act. If he unlawfully fails to comply, the principle that a member can leave in accordance with its own constitutional arrangements might be offended.

It is of course ultimately a matter on which the ECJ would have to pronounce, if it actually arose, and there are as always arguments both ways. But I think there is a respectable argument to the effect that an act of Martyrdom by Boris by simply refusing to comply with the law would not lead to us crashing out without a deal in any event.

The ECJ has certainly said that a member state can revoke its notice to withdraw but I'm not sure it would say that a country being in political chaos is a reason for the letter of Article 50 to be set aside until we were not in chaos. If there is no extension or revocation by 31st October your argument would be tested in court long after that date so it would need the EU and whatever is left of the UK government to pretend nothing had changed. I don't think the EU would be so inclined.

 

[Vic]

This one?

https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

That's the one.

"It is clear that 15 years after the euro debate the general public know nothing more about the EU institutions than they did then. Less than 1% have heard of the EEA. Few MPs know the difference between the EEA and EFTA or the intricacies of the WTO rules. The idea that the public could be effectively educated about such things in the time we have seems unlikely.

There is much to be gained by swerving the whole issue."

 

[west didsblue]

The supreme court case presented by Lord Pannick in a nutshell is "The inferior body, the executive, cannot prevent the superior body, parliament, from exercising its powers"

With a name like that it must be pun time.

I'll start with Corporal Jones "Don't Pannick, Mr Johnson"
and Morrissey "There's Pannick in the courts of London"

I bet one of them forms the headline in one of the papers tomorrow.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Well worth pointing out the dangers of labouring under misapprehensions and your last sentence contains two very salient ones. Our dysfunction is designed by the EU solely for their benefit. Their interest is to keep us inside the cartel as a paying member and lucrative controlled market not dump us out.

So this shit show that you've put on is still all the EU's fault then?
I would say there is a sizeable amount of the EU community that would like nothing more than to see you out at this stage and let everyone get on with their lives.
However leaving emotion out of it, it would be negligent of any government especially our own, not to use every bit of diplomacy possible to make that break as painless for it's own citizens as possible.
Ireland would suffer more than the UK from a No Deal Brexit but quite frankly I'm getting to the same stage a great number of you are.
That you're just sick of it and want out one way or another. For you personally you think it's all the EU's fault.
From our perspective, we see nothing but waffle, bluff, discord, insincerity and down right belligerence at times from your parliament.
Your dysfunction is not the design of the EU. Your dysfunction has been bubbling under the surface for many a year now.
You stumbled into finding a way to blame a common enemy for a lot of your population. An enemy that wasn't within, because that would be far too difficult a problem to face up to.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Well worth pointing out the dangers of labouring under misapprehensions and your last sentence contains two very salient ones. Our dysfunction is designed by the EU solely for their benefit. Their interest is to keep us inside the cartel as a paying member and lucrative controlled market not dump us out.

We voted to leave [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Magicpole]

Seems like it's because the Judges/Justices? have electronic versions vs his paper version. You also have to understand that this has had to be done in a relative hurry, so all ducks/pages not lined up.

It's not great but hardly "amateurish".

I’m sorry to disagree but when such an important issue is at stake, making sure you have you case in a way that is easily followed is fundamental. It is amateurish. They should have known which format the judges had and delivered a guidance that followed it. He was corrected numerous times and that is a fucking ballsup imo.

 

[George Hannah]

So this shit show that you've put on is still all the EU's fault then?
I would say there is a sizeable amount of the EU community that would like nothing more than to see you out at this stage and let everyone get on with their lives.
However leaving emotion out of it, it would be negligent of any government especially our own, not to use every bit of diplomacy possible to make that break as painless for it's own citizens as possible.
Ireland would suffer more than the UK from a No Deal Brexit but quite frankly I'm getting to the same stage a great number of you are.
That you're just sick of it and want out one way or another. For you personally you think it's all the EU's fault.
From our perspective, we see nothing but waffle, bluff, discord, insincerity and down right belligerence at times from your parliament.
Your dysfunction is not the design of the EU. Your dysfunction has been bubbling under the surface for many a year now.
You stumbled into finding a way to blame a common enemy for a lot of your population. An enemy that wasn't within, because that would be far to difficult a problem to face up to.

The EU is the culprit, first and last. It seeks to become an undemocratic federal superstate. Its Lisbon Treaty provides for a solitary exit route for member states not wishing that outcome that can be and has been made deeply and unnecessarily damaging solely in order to discourage others.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

So this shit show that you've put on is still all the EU's fault then?
I would say there is a sizeable amount of the EU community that would like nothing more than to see you out at this stage and let everyone get on with their lives.
However leaving emotion out of it, it would be negligent of any government especially our own, not to use every bit of diplomacy possible to make that break as painless for it's own citizens as possible.
Ireland would suffer more than the UK from a No Deal Brexit but quite frankly I'm getting to the same stage a great number of you are.
That you're just sick of it and want out one way or another. For you personally you think it's all the EU's fault.
From our perspective, we see nothing but waffle, bluff, discord, insincerity and down right belligerence at times from your parliament.
Your dysfunction is not the design of the EU. Your dysfunction has been bubbling under the surface for many a year now.
You stumbled into finding a way to blame a common enemy for a lot of your population. An enemy that wasn't within, because that would be far too difficult a problem to face up to.

People who's fault the Brexit mess is:

Remainers
The EU
Parliament
The Speaker
Jeremy Corbyn
Germany
The Irish
David Cameron
Teresa May

People who's fault the Brexit mess is not:

Those who wanted it.

 

[inbetween]

So this shit show that you've put on is still all the EU's fault then?

I would say there is a sizeable amount of the EU community that would like nothing more than to see you out at this stage and let everyone get on with their lives.

However leaving emotion out of it, it would be negligent of any government especially our own, not to use every bit of diplomacy possible to make that break as painless for it's own citizens as possible.

Ireland would suffer more than the UK from a No Deal Brexit but quite frankly I'm getting to the same stage a great number of you are.

That you're just sick of it and want out one way or another. For you personally you think it's all the EU's fault.

From our perspective, we see nothing but waffle, bluff, discord, insincerity and down right belligerence at times from your parliament.

Your dysfunction is not the design of the EU. Your dysfunction has been bubbling under the surface for many a year now.

You stumbled into finding a way to blame a common enemy for a lot of your population. An enemy that wasn't within, because that would be far to difficult a problem to face up to.

The question really is if no deal was to be avoided at all costs then for what reason did MP's vote against May's deal?

Obviously two factions were at play, one which would reject all deals regardless in order to keep remain alive and the other just wanted the hardest leave possible.

Even Boris voted for the deal he is trying to renegotiate and Labour now want to renegotiate the deal only to then vote against it!!?

This whole process is doomed and it is because Parliament as a whole is unable or refuses to do what the people gave it a mandate to do.

 

[Magicpole]

It’s getting worse. He was making big the case that bills were not able to be discussed. When asked which ones, he couldn’t cite them. If I wasn’t so fair minded I would think this **** is trying to fuck up his own case. Fucking shambles.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

This one?

https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

What is really telling about that article is that both Cummings and Johnson seem to be advocating voting leave in order to get a much improved deal from the EU (compared to the Cameron deal) and then having a second referendum on that deal. It is an excellent plan but, rather mystifingly, seems to be that one plan that no-one has tried. It was odd to me as it was the exact thing I thought Cameron would have suggested, the day after the referendum.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

That's the one.

"It is clear that 15 years after the euro debate the general public know nothing more about the EU institutions than they did then. Less than 1% have heard of the EEA. Few MPs know the difference between the EEA and EFTA or the intricacies of the WTO rules. The idea that the public could be effectively educated about such things in the time we have seems unlikely.

There is much to be gained by swerving the whole issue."

Is he saying that EVERYONE is thick???

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I agree, a Norway style deal imo is the way to go but the conservatives don't seem to have any interest in that

Forget Iran. Why don't you just invade Norway.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Forget Iran. Why don't you just invade Norway.

???

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I can't see it. He decided to shrink his negotiating team to a fraction of what it was under May.
If he really wanted a deal wouldn't he be stepping up the search for a deal?

There's nothing going on.

Between his ears, either.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

???

Move there. problem solved.

 

[George Hannah]

We voted to leave [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

and they are seeking to ensure that our departure is as damaging to us as possible - we'll see if their attempt to turn the UK into their colony works - there are many on here cheering them on in their nefarious endeavours. If such are citizens of this country it is akin to celebrating self mutilation.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

and they are seeking to ensure that our departure is as damaging to us as possible - we'll see if their attempt to turn the UK into their colony works - there are many on here cheering them on in their nefarious endeavours. If such are citizens of this country it is akin to celebrating self mutilation.