Prorogation - Judgment Day:10.30am Tuesday 24/9/19

lol the Mogg, he must know he's going to have to apologise at a point for calling the decision of the supreme court as a "coup"
 
Chris in London said:
I’ve posted what follows in another thread but it seems apposite here, too. You are absolutely right that Parliament is sovereign, as Dicey explained. Despite that, the forum is replete with people who asserts that somehow we have lost sovereignty even when you show them that the highest court in the land has clearly repeatedly said we have not.

To my mind, this insistence that Parliament is no longer sovereign raises two questions:

1. If the reduction in a nation state’s ability to act as it chooses as a result of EU membership is NOT a loss of sovereignty, what is it? And

2. Whatever it is, why does it keep on getting described as a loss of sovereignty when that is categorically what it is not?

As to the first, the answer actually is quite simple. Even where the UK is legally entitled (as a matter of UK law) to act in a particular way, the political consequences of doing so frequently make such action unthinkable, even if legally possible. It is an excellent thing to have the strength of a giant but tyrannous to use it as a giant would.

Take this example. In 1919 (IIRC) Parliament voted that the 26 southern counties of Ireland should become independent. Legally it would be open to Parliament now to revoke that law, and any other law recognising Irish independence which followed it, on the application of the straightforward principle that any law that Parliament has made can be unmade. You don’t need me to tell you however that the political consequences of doing so would be catastrophic, so Parliament would never choose to do so even though as a strict matter of UK law it could.

In the context of international agreements, the fact that the United Kingdom enters into a treaty or enters into a convention stipulating that it will act in a particular way does not involve any loss of sovereignty. What it does do is render it politically unacceptable that it should act in a way that contravenes that agreement, even though it is legally open to it to do so as a matter of UK law. So, it is legally open to Parliament to decree that enemy combatants should be executed without trial, but it would be incompatible with the Geneva convention to do so, thus Parliament’s legal freedom to act as it chooses is limited by non-legal factors. Similarly, it is open to the UK Parliament to disapply any law emanating from the EU that it chooses, but again the political (including economic) consequences would be such that the absolute legal freedom enjoyed by Parliament to act as it chooses is in practice constrained by non-legal factors.

So why, given that accession to all international agreements and structures involves accepting political constraits on our freedom to act as Parliament chooses, is the inevitable acceptance of those constraints described in this, but only this, instance as a loss of sovereignty? Why for instance do those advocating that we leave the EU on WTO terms not acknowledge that this would involve a similar curtailment on our freedom to act as we choose? Why is membership of NATO not similarly described?

Well, in my opinion - and here we depart from the realm of law (which is settled, though not always universally understood) and enter the realm of opinion - the answer is that claims of a loss of sovereignty, whilst inaccurate, are more emotive. If your complaint is that abiding by an international treaty prevents us from doing what we want when we want, it doesn’t really set the pulse racing. Of course we can’t do what we want, but the benefits of signing up outweigh the limitations that signing up places on our freedom to act. Complaining about it is not exactly going to get people manning the barricades.

The claim that we has lost our sovereignty goes far far beyond that. It hints at a nation being emasculated. It hints of dark foreign powers that threatened us with invasion in the last century and the centuries before. It represents a challenge to our national identity and our place in the world. It’s bullshit to say we have lost our sovereignty, of course, but it speaks to our very sense of identity.

Is this deliberate? In my view it is. The argument that membership of the EU involves a loss of sovereignty (in terms what sovereignty actually technically means) is advanced either by those who don’t understand what it means, or do understand it and advance the argument dishonestly. My view is that the argument emanated from the latter and has been taken up by the former. The proponents of the argument that we have lost sovereignty are also those who said we could send the £350m we currently send to Brussels every week to the NHS. They are the people who put up a poster during the referendum campaign about immigration containing the headline ‘breaking point’ showing a series of black faces when thre is not a single EU member state that does not have a majority white population. I could go on. The claim we have lost our sovereignty stands alongside the other emotive, dishonest claims that came from the leave side.
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Humbug.

They won, you lost. Get over it.
 
Just more fucking lies............even when Peston corrects him he ploughs on with lies - totally unfit for office the thundercunt

 
Parliament is full of MP's elected by the people to represent them - those MP's are affiliated ( mostly ) to a specific party the largest number of which form a govt. When it comes to politics in this country at the moment everything must be viewed through the prism of Brexit. The vote there was 52/48 and that wasn't all of the population at the time, not all the people who are able to vote now and not all of the population now. So all those who voted Leave or stay did so in 2016 however all those elected to Parliament were elected 2017 when there may have been changes. The whole point of this being nothing was cut and dried in any vote so how anybody can be surprised by what we have is beyond me.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Parliament is full of MP's elected by the people to represent them - those MP's are affiliated ( mostly ) to a specific party the largest number of which form a govt. When it comes to politics in this country at the moment everything must be viewed through the prism of Brexit. The vote there was 52/48 and that wasn't all of the population at the time, not all the people who are able to vote now and not all of the population now. So all those who voted Leave or stay did so in 2016 however all those elected to Parliament were elected 2017 when there may have been changes. The whole point of this being nothing was cut and dried in any vote so how anybody can be surprised by what we have is beyond me.
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People do not have a clue. I looked at my Mrs facebook page and they all thought Mr Ahmed in the corner shop would be sent home. Brexit was not about that. Uneducated people voting who don't have a clue. Fucking scary they are allowed to vote. But that is democracy.
 
m7mcfc said:
People do not have a clue. I looked at my Mrs facebook page and they all thought Mr Ahmed in the corner shop would be sent home. Brexit was not about that. Uneducated people voting who don't have a clue. Fucking scary they are allowed to vote. But that is democracy.
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Goebbels would have been proud of the levels of disinformation we have in this country.

He said

"There was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the stronger, and this will always be the man on the street, Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant abd entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology"
 
urban genie said:
Scarier than a government that has murdered thousands through policy like this one has?
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By the time of the election Corbyn will be the Devil incarnate.

The deaths of disabled people will be ignored, foodbanks will be forgotten, austerity will be forgotten, homelessness will be forgotten, the destruction of the NHS will be forgotten.

Corbyn is a Marxist, that will be important.
 
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