Another new Brexit thread

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blueinsa said:
The SNP are not the Scots and certainly don't speak for every one living here.

Over 1 million Scots voted to leave so who speaks for them because the SNP are not?

Who speaks for the majority that rejected independence because again the SNP are not?

Classic remain tactic of pretending you speak for everyone.

You don't and the SNP don't.
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LOL @ the number of posts we see on here decrying that certain groups are not represented - yet this simple fact is completely ignored.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Because there are a growing number of people in England who support their claims of being mistreated and ignored by Westminster?

You just see the negative in everything, don't you.
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Absolute bollocks.
Read some of Ancient Citizen's posts and come back and tell me that again. Read some of 1632's as well if you can look past the pompous piffle.
 
Neville Kneville said:
So can you explain what you meant by 'it's not about vetos' ?
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I already have done, over and over again.

That wasn't your initial argument was it.

I'll keep this as simple as possible; Imagine "Europe" a "FEDERAL Europe" as an idea. No more Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc, just "Europe". Now take all those nations who agree with this sentiment, and throw in a ten step program to achieving it. Imagine that those nations mentioned have agreed 8/9 out of the ten steps and WE (the UK) only agree to two because WE (the UK) veto'd the rest.

Who is more supportive of seeing "Europe" and who isn't? Now imagine more steps are added, and they are agreed by the other members (14/15) and we don't, because we keep vetoing them. So most "European" supporting nations on 14/15, the UK on 3/15. Are we REALLY going to claim here that the UK is wholly supportive of the "Europe" idea, when we (the UK) keep vetoing it? Now throw into the mix ANOTHER European Group, that has the same ideas as "Europe", only less federal. They've agreed, collectively, to a few more steps with "Europe", sitting on 5 or 6/15 steps, but are still not in favour of this "Federal Europe" idea, that others do. Wouldn't it make sense for the UK, who keep vetoing, to join the group that also prefers to veto the ideas that "Europe" has?
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
Who is saying people in a country cannot self determine their own fate?

If the people of Scotland want to leave the uk have another referendum then fine. I don’t live in Scotland , I live in England but if that referendum resulted in Scotland wanted to leave the uk and leave won I would totally respect that view and I think it would be incumbent on the rest of the uk to work with the Scottish govt reasonably to facilitate that result efficiently reasonably and sensibly.
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That is because we Leavers are consistently democratic - not just when it suits;-)

Annoyingly. from an English perspective (just joking by the way) they will not vote that way if we have already left the EU
 
Kazzydeyna said:
I'm perfectly happy for the Scots and their masters, the yellow tory SNP, to have another ref. I'm even happy for them to win it.

I just wont be happy for them to leave without a deal that is agreeable to both sides. And if the rest of the uk will not agree to their proposed deal then they will of course have to stay part of the union.

I'm sure the SNP and those voting to leave the uk would agree this is entirely appropriate, fully democratic, and would of course endorse this negotiating position fully.

That's the thing with trying to subvert the democratic will of the people. It can come back to bite you.
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I would love to be part of the UK's negotiating team......

Let's first of all agree the WA and once we have every element of that sorted, we can start commencement on a TA.

Now, where shall we start?

  • Border issues? - you will be responsible for protecting the integrity of the UK's single market....
  • Settlement of outstanding commitments - what percentage of the national debt can be considered to be attributable to Scotland?.....
  • Whilst Scotland are spending many £Billions (where will that come from once the UK have stopped paying and the EU have less to fund the development of other EU country's infrastructure?) - and a few decades - building the required infrastructure and facilities to trade beyond the UK - what would be the appropriate levies that should be imposed for the use of UK's infrastructure?
  • What processes would be needed to ensure that there is continued free travel?
  • You have to accept the UK courts as the sole arbiter of any disputes.....
etc. etc.

Oh - and of course........

WTF happens if we do not secure an agreed WA!!!!?????

Hmmmmmm......

Of course - should you then decide to stay then we will of course welcome that - we just need to consult the rest of our citizens and review the appropriate future arrangements.

What? Barnett formula you say? Sounds a bit 'cake and eat it' does it not?

This is another area where some on here speak bollocks due to a lack of thinking it through - and do it oh so confidently
 
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west didsblue said:
I'm no fan of the SNP but the Scottish people can vote for whoever they want. If they think that the main UK wide parties don't do enough for them, then it's hardly surprising that they have picked up a lot of support.
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You wont mind us voting for pro brexit parties then given the others dont do anything for us?
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
Unfortunately mate I think it's a case of people not realising how difficult this process would be.

"Easiest trade deal ever" etc. The simple fact is there's only been one agreement put between the EU and the UK and that's is May's W.A. That was rejected by remainers and leavers as well.
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Well - just imagine all those arguments we have heard about the importance of distance in trading and the size of existing trading balance being sooooooo important and a reason that we should not leave the EU

What about the difficulty of unpicking so many years of shared processes????

Then apply that to Scotland leaving the UK after the UK have genuinely left the EU......

Be interested in your detailed views? Same with other Remainers - apart from those that have already posted bollocks on the subject and then ran away and hid
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
I already have done, over and over again.

That wasn't your initial argument was it.

I'll keep this as simple as possible; Imagine "Europe" a "FEDERAL Europe" as an idea. No more Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc, just "Europe". Now take all those nations who agree with this sentiment, and throw in a ten step program to achieving it. Imagine that those nations mentioned have agreed 8/9 out of the ten steps and WE (the UK) only agree to two because WE (the UK) veto'd the rest.

Who is more supportive of seeing "Europe" and who isn't? Now imagine more steps are added, and they are agreed by the other members (14/15) and we don't, because we keep vetoing them. So most "European" supporting nations on 14/15, the UK on 3/15. Are we REALLY going to claim here that the UK is wholly supportive of the "Europe" idea, when we (the UK) keep vetoing it? Now throw into the mix ANOTHER European Group, that has the same ideas as "Europe", only less federal. They've agreed, collectively, to a few more steps with "Europe", sitting on 5 or 6/15 steps, but are still not in favour of this "Federal Europe" idea, that others do. Wouldn't it make sense for the UK, who keep vetoing, to join the group that also prefers to veto the ideas that "Europe" has?
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Well to be honest that is 'all about vetos' .

Did 'we' vote to leave because of that ? No. Maybe you & some did. Plenty of others didn't.

Would I vote to leave because I might end up using a veto ? No.

That would be like chucking in my season ticket now because I don't think the next manager will be as good as Pep.
 
mcfc1632 said:
That is because we Leavers are consistently democratic - not just when it suits;-)

Annoyingly. from an English perspective (just joking by the way) they will not vote that way if we have already left the EU
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You won't be wanting to force the Irish, on either side of the border, to do stuff they don't want to, because of a situation not of their making, then.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Well - just imagine all those arguments we have heard about the importance of distance in trading and the size of existing trading balance being sooooooo important and a reason that we should not leave the EU

What about the difficulty of unpicking so many years of shared processes????

Then apply that to Scotland leaving the UK after the UK have genuinely left the EU......

Be interested in your detailed views? Same with other Remainers - apart from those that have already posted bollocks on the subject and then ran away and hid
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My views aren't all that detailed or interesting mate.

I could simplify it down to that I don't think the mess over the last 3 years or so has been worth it, for something that to me at least appears to have no tangible benefits in mime and most people's everyday life.
 
blueinsa said:
You wont mind us voting for pro brexit parties then given the others dont do anything for us?
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You can vote for anyone you want.
And if you want to vote for a party that is a limited company under the sole control of one person and doesn't have a manifesto, that's entirely up to you.
 
Neville Kneville said:
Well to be honest that is 'all about vetos' .

Did 'we' vote to leave because of that ? No. Maybe you & some did. Plenty of others didn't.

Would I vote to leave because I might end up using a veto ? No.

That would be like chucking in my season ticket now because I don't think the next manager will be as good as Pep.
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Actually it's not. It's about association.

We are voluntarily choosing not to associate further with the rest of Europe on the issue of federalism, and it's reached a point where we are effectively so far removed from what the rest of Europe wants, can anyone of us state we're really a "member", when it's obvious we don't agree to what they're advocating?
 
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