Another new Brexit thread

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M18CTID said:
Does wiping my arse on the ballot paper constitute tactical voting? ;)

As much as I've bemoaned the current state of politics in this country, what can't be denied is that it will arguably be the most fascinating GE in my voting life.
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From about 22:01 onwards. It'll be the one of the most divisive and unpleasant campaign though.
 
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Chris in London said:
I think it is worth drawing a distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

I am extremely patriotic. I am proud to come from a country from which have come some of the greatest thinkers, scientists, writers and artists the world has ever known. I am proud that when I go to watch City I travel across a street named after the English man that invented the computer. I am proud that the man who invented the hyper text transfer protocol (basically, the technique that allows the internet to exist in its modern form) is a compatriot of mine. I am proud that we as a nation stood up to fascism and bankrupted ourselves to do it, because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the English breakfast (or Scottish, for those north of the border) and the Sunday roast is at least the equal of any meal from any culture in the world. I am proud of our architecture, and the beauty of our landscape. I am proud that we were the first nation to abolish slavery and to police that on the high seas because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the world speaks our language, and plays our games, and that large areas of the planet follow our laws, and have adopted our system of government and democracy, because people from Hull and Stockport and Brighton and Yeovil went and built new societies across the world. And until 2016 I was proud that we were a tolerant nation and were not beset by many of the national insecurities that affected places like the US, Australia and (dare I say it) Ireland. I'm also proud that we are the first and only nation to win the world cups in football rugby and cricket. I have no difficulty with other nations being equally proud of their cultures and heritage - if I came from the land of Yeats and Joyce I'd be proud of them too - but that's what I fee about mine, and I will happily argue the toss with anyone who says otherwise.

I am not in the least nationalistic. I regard nationalism as being exclusionary, and fundamentally xenophobic. It is not I think in itself racist, but it seems to me that it is a short step from nationalism to racism. It is about being better than you rather than being the best we can be. It is about scapegoating others and not taking responsibility for your own problems. It is a poisonous and twisted view that gratifies its adherents not by taking simple pride in the achievements of its own tribe, but by doing so in order to demonstrate its apparent superiority to others.

It's the difference, if you like, between the Wolves fans last Sunday who were genuinely delighted that their team had gone away and beaten the champions of England in their back yard, because that's some achievement, and those who felt better about themselves because having watched their team they then hurled abuse and gestures and made threats of violence towards the fans of the team they had just beaten from behind the safety of a 10 foot high metal fence.
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What a great post. Reflects my feelings completely. I have always been proud that we were a liberal, tolerant, inclusive, progressive country. Now I’m ashamed that the opposite forces to this have hijacked the future of the country and made us all look like peevish, deluded, small-minded idiots.

Rest assured that most of the rest of the world perceives us that way now.
 
M18CTID said:
Does wiping my arse on the ballot paper constitute tactical voting? ;)

As much as I've bemoaned the current state of politics in this country, what can't be denied is that it will arguably be the most fascinating GE in my voting life.
Click to expand...
Just discussing the same with my mate; it's going to be utterly gripping and could define the next generation at least. I reckon the turnout could top 80%.
 
walking down oxford road half an hour or so ago, some complete bellend pissed out of his face giving it "alexander boris de pfeffel johnson is going to send every one of you fuckers back home soon" to all the foreign students walking past. just the kind of welcoming attitude that brexit has produced in this country.
 
Chris in London said:
I think it is worth drawing a distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

I am extremely patriotic. I am proud to come from a country from which have come some of the greatest thinkers, scientists, writers and artists the world has ever known. I am proud that when I go to watch City I travel across a street named after the English man that invented the computer. I am proud that the man who invented the hyper text transfer protocol (basically, the technique that allows the internet to exist in its modern form) is a compatriot of mine. I am proud that we as a nation stood up to fascism and bankrupted ourselves to do it, because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the English breakfast (or Scottish, for those north of the border) and the Sunday roast is at least the equal of any meal from any culture in the world. I am proud of our architecture, and the beauty of our landscape. I am proud that we were the first nation to abolish slavery and to police that on the high seas because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the world speaks our language, and plays our games, and that large areas of the planet follow our laws, and have adopted our system of government and democracy, because people from Hull and Stockport and Brighton and Yeovil went and built new societies across the world. And until 2016 I was proud that we were a tolerant nation and were not beset by many of the national insecurities that affected places like the US, Australia and (dare I say it) Ireland. I'm also proud that we are the first and only nation to win the world cups in football rugby and cricket. I have no difficulty with other nations being equally proud of their cultures and heritage - if I came from the land of Yeats and Joyce I'd be proud of them too - but that's what I fee about mine, and I will happily argue the toss with anyone who says otherwise.

I am not in the least nationalistic. I regard nationalism as being exclusionary, and fundamentally xenophobic. It is not I think in itself racist, but it seems to me that it is a short step from nationalism to racism. It is about being better than you rather than being the best we can be. It is about scapegoating others and not taking responsibility for your own problems. It is a poisonous and twisted view that gratifies its adherents not by taking simple pride in the achievements of its own tribe, but by doing so in order to demonstrate its apparent superiority to others.

It's the difference, if you like, between the Wolves fans last Sunday who were genuinely delighted that their team had gone away and beaten the champions of England in their back yard, because that's some achievement, and those who felt better about themselves because having watched their team they then hurled abuse and gestures and made threats of violence towards the fans of the team they had just beaten from behind the safety of a 10 foot high metal fence.
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Do you feel patriotic towards England, the UK or both? My patriotism for both Scotland and the UK was strong but is getting really bent out of shape by the overt nationalism from both countries. I am genuinely confused what to think and what to feel about the current situation. I just wondered if you felt the same in any way.
 
Who the fuck are this Leave.eu lot anyway? They just look like another Britain First-esque mob (I'm more of a Britain Furst king of guy by the way) to me who try and come across as something approaching legit by sharing a load of stuff on social media that then gets passed around and some end up swallowing it. In fact, seeing stuff like that they're even less subtle than BF at times. Unless there are some well-known people behind them, I'm not sure why they're getting any credit. They've got less than 300,000 followers ffs!
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
There's a lot in there to agree with.
It's a good distinction you make between Patriotism and Nationalism. Patriotism may be more along the concept I had in mind.

I suppose when I see Nationalism here I don't see the same sort of negativity towards the wider world that you can encounter with English Nationalism.
I suppose Scottish Nationalism and Irish Nationalism is very much focused on the domestic union and therefore has always been at loggerheads with England as unequal partners in the UK. I suppose this can explain the defensive aggressive nature that you sometimes encounter with English Nationalism. It does extend to the wider world though.

But I see a contradiction between English Nationalists that want out of the EU but want the UK to remain the same.
They seem like conflicting ideas to me. Particularly as their counterparts in other regions of the union have the opposite view.
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I don't think you can equate English nationalism directly with Scottish or Irish nationalism. Or, perhaps I should say, there is a difference between (say) Irish nationalism and Irish Nationalism. In the sense that I have described English nationalism, I detest Scottish nationalism and irish nationalism with equal force for the same reasons. If people think they're better than me because they're irish and I'm not, they can fuck right off.

But in the context of this thread irish nationalism is usually used to refer to a political school of thought that the island of Ireland should be a single geo-political entity. I don't think that would be in the best interests of those in Northern Ireland personally, but it's obviously a legitimate political viewpoint to hold, and if they were ever to decide that that's where their future lies, good luck to them. I view Scottish and Welsh nationalism in that sense in the same light. I would also view any English people who took the view that England would be better off if the other three nations left the union as legitimate, and entitled to their views, but ultimately misguided.

So is the problem that the Neanderthal nationalists of any of the four nations have been allowed to hijack a legitimate school of thought, or that a Neanderthal attitude is legitimised by being associated with a reasonable political aspiration? I don't know, but I am fairly clear that there's a difference between nationalism as a political aspiration, and nationalism as a state of mind, and one is healthy and understandable, the other is poisonous and destructive.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
What a great post. Reflects my feelings completely. I have always been proud that we were a liberal, tolerant, inclusive, progressive country. Now I’m ashamed that the opposite forces to this have hijacked the future of the country and made us all look like peevish, deluded, small-minded idiots.
Rest assured that most of the rest of the world perceives us that way now.
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Given those liberal, tolerant, inclusive and progressive views it's a pity you'd have 17.4 million leave voters drowned in your endless sea of visceral contempt. As for the Dismal Echo world barometer confirming we are a nation of 'peevish, deluded, small minded idiots' - give yourself a tap.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Do you feel patriotic towards England, the UK or both? My patriotism for both Scotland and the UK was strong but is getting really bent out of shape by the overt nationalism from both countries. I am genuinely confused what to think and what to feel about the current situation. I just wondered if you felt the same in any way.
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Both, actually. I loved it when Andy Murray won Wimbledon, I genuinely viewed that as a British win. I'm no fan of curling but was pleased as punch when a team selected almost exclusively from the western isles (IIRC) won the gold at the winter Olympics. I take as much pleasure when Rory McIlroy wins at golf (though that's not such a common occurrence these days) as when Tommy Fleetwood does. So many of the great achievements of the Victorian age were, as you know, achieved by scots especially in fields like engineering and medicine, and when I think about them I don't shrug and think 'Scottish, nothing to do with me', I think 'this is what our country has achieved, and it's fucking brilliant.' I think the Bell Rock lighthouse and the Bristol suspension bridge are engineering miracles alike, and I don't distinguish between them on the grounds one was designed by an Englishman, the other by a scot.

In similar vein, I'm always hugely proud of great feats achieved by Mancunians, but that doesn't stop me being proud of great feats achieved by English men and women from Sheffield or Bristol or Plymouth, or of Britons from Cardiff or Belfast or Edinburgh.

As to the current situation, I think I will restrict myself to saying that however you define your nationality, this is not our nation's finest hour.
 
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George Hannah said:
Nice.
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It's exactly the sort of language that you use.

This was at 9:15 this morning re SNP MPs; "A veritable infestation of rancorous parasites bent on degrading our democratic processes"

Disgusting rhetoric. I think that you think that you're somehow being funny. But you're beyond that these days.

May your God forgive you.
 
George Hannah said:
Given those liberal, tolerant, inclusive and progressive views it's a pity you'd have 17.4 million leave voters drowned in your endless sea of visceral contempt. As for the Dismal Echo world barometer confirming we are a nation of 'peevish, deluded, small minded idiots' - give yourself a tap.
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Dave can fight his own battles, but he didn't say we are a nation of peevish idiots, he said that's increasingly how we are being viewed outside these shores, and I tell you what George, he's absolutely right. Read how the foreign press is reporting this abomination, and you'll see what I mean.
 
Chris in London said:
Both, actually. I loved it when Andy Murray won Wimbledon, I genuinely viewed that as a British win. I'm no fan of curling but was pleased as punch when a team selected almost exclusively from the western isles (IIRC) won the gold at the winter Olympics. I take as much pleasure when Rory McIlroy wins at golf (though that's not such a common occurrence these days) as when Tommy Fleetwood does. So many of the great achievements of the Victorian age were, as you know, achieved by scots especially in fields like engineering and medicine, and when I think about them I don't shrug and think 'Scottish, nothing to do with me', I think this is what our country has achieved.

In similar vein, I'm always hugely proud of great feats achieved by Mancunians, but that doesn't stop me being proud of great feats achieved by English men and women from Sheffield or Bristol or Plymouth, or of Britons from Cardiff or Belfast or Edinburgh.

As to the current situation, I think I will restrict myself to saying that however you define your nationality, this is not our nation's finest hour.
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Not Liverpool then?
 
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