Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

Just for clarity, I asked this

“It’s looking more and more likely that the only options on the table will be remain and no deal, and that’s the battleground on which the election will be fought.

Which are you?”


You replied

“It doesn't matter what options are presented to me. I will continue to advocate what I believe in, even if it's in the minority as you so claim. I refuse to allow people such as yourself to back me into a corner of remaining or no deal, both of which I abhore.

What the nation decides is what the nation decides. I advocate leaving the EU with a deal, and the deal that is as close to my preferred outcome of EFTA membership, or the stipulations that closely resemble such an outcome, will be the one I support.

If no such offer is presented, I will not support either.”

I then said

“Not a question of backing you into a corner, but if/when it comes to the final analysis the choice will probably come down to a no deal Brexit or remain. If I read you rightly you are saying if those were the options on a confirmatory referendum you won’t vote at all, which is your right.

The exercise of which remainders would view as one leaver fewer.”

And you responded

“I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU. So sorry to burst your bubble (as it appears that seems to be the remainers endgame, to neutralise as many soft brexit opinions as possible.) but no deal is still preferable to a leaver such as myself, than remaining, on the basis that democracy MUST above all, win out. It is by far my least preferred leave option, but any leave option trumps remaining without a public referendum or GE preceding it. “

I’m not wishing to back you into a corner, or imply anything, I’m just interested to know whether in the final analysis you support no deal or not. Because so far you’ve given two contradictory replies to my original question. On the first occasion, you said you wouldn’t support no deal, on the second occasion you said you would.

Out of interest, which is it?

I don't support either, what part of that aren't you understanding.

But I will always vote for any option that sees us leave the EU over remaining. It really isn't that hard to understand.

I don't support no deal, but I support leaving the EU. If leaving the EU means a no deal, i'd accept it in order to honour democracy. There is no circumstance in which i'd back remaining unless it won by a democratic vote, which again, I would not support.

What you're basically asking me is "do I now support remaining" and the answer is NO.

Respecting democracy is what i'd support. There is no mandate to remain.

 

[Saddleworth2]

That's not fair, we are thick you will win easily.

Why do you think I suggested it?

 

[BobKowalski]

I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU. So sorry to burst your bubble (as it appears that seems to be the remainers endgame, to neutralise as many soft brexit opinions as possible.) but no deal is still preferable to a leaver such as myself, than remaining, on the basis that democracy MUST above all, win out. It is by far my least preferred leave option, but any leave option trumps remaining without a public referendum or GE preceding it.

You want to avoid that? Then join my side, the compromisers, and insist that a deal is done, no matter what concessions or length of time that might take.

If there is another vote that is also democracy.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Like fuck.

Unbelievable isn’t it? Hardly surprising though as it’s been ignored, swept under the table since before the referendum. At some point though, it will need to be addressed by adults.

 

[Metal Biker]

If there is another vote that is also democracy.

But the result of the first vote has not yet been concluded.

We leave and then hold a referendum on rejoining.

Democratically, remaining is dead, there is NO mandate for it. If we hold a referendum to rejoin, and it wins, that becomes the new mandate.

 

[Rascal]

I think it is worth drawing a distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

I am extremely patriotic. I am proud to come from a country from which have come some of the greatest thinkers, scientists, writers and artists the world has ever known. I am proud that when I go to watch City I travel across a street named after the English man that invented the computer. I am proud that the man who invented the hyper text transfer protocol (basically, the technique that allows the internet to exist in its modern form) is a compatriot of mine. I am proud that we as a nation stood up to fascism and bankrupted ourselves to do it, because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the English breakfast (or Scottish, for those north of the border) and the Sunday roast is at least the equal of any meal from any culture in the world. I am proud of our architecture, and the beauty of our landscape. I am proud that we were the first nation to abolish slavery and to police that on the high seas because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the world speaks our language, and plays our games, and that large areas of the planet follow our laws, and have adopted our system of government and democracy, because people from Hull and Stockport and Brighton and Yeovil went and built new societies across the world. And until 2016 I was proud that we were a tolerant nation and were not beset by many of the national insecurities that affected places like the US, Australia and (dare I say it) Ireland. I'm also proud that we are the first and only nation to win the world cups in football rugby and cricket. I have no difficulty with other nations being equally proud of their cultures and heritage - if I came from the land of Yeats and Joyce I'd be proud of them too - but that's what I fee about mine, and I will happily argue the toss with anyone who says otherwise.

I am not in the least nationalistic. I regard nationalism as being exclusionary, and fundamentally xenophobic. It is not I think in itself racist, but it seems to me that it is a short step from nationalism to racism. It is about being better than you rather than being the best we can be. It is about scapegoating others and not taking responsibility for your own problems. It is a poisonous and twisted view that gratifies its adherents not by taking simple pride in the achievements of its own tribe, but by doing so in order to demonstrate its apparent superiority to others.

It's the difference, if you like, between the Wolves fans last Sunday who were genuinely delighted that their team had gone away and beaten the champions of England in their back yard, because that's some achievement, and those who felt better about themselves because having watched their team they then hurled abuse and gestures and made threats of violence towards the fans of the team they had just beaten from behind the safety of a 10 foot high metal fence.

Superb post.

Chapeau.

Orwell is brilliant on the differences if anyone wants to read more.

 

[Chris in London]

I don't support either, what part of that aren't you understanding.

But I will always vote for any option that sees us leave the EU over remaining. It really isn't that hard to understand.

I don't support no deal, but I support leaving the EU. If leaving the EU means a no deal, i'd accept it in order to honour democracy. There is no circumstance in which i'd back remaining unless it won by a democratic vote, which again, I would not support.

What you're basically asking me is "do I now support remaining" and the answer is NO.

Respecting democracy is what i'd support. There is no mandate to remain.

No, I’m asking ‘in the final analysis’ whether you would support remain or no deal if they prove to be the only two options on the table. In the first reply you said you abhor no deal, in the second you said you’d vote for any option that saw us leave the EU.

Am I right, and correct me if I’m wrong, in reading your position as being that in a second referendum, on those options, you would vote no deal, even though you abhor it, rather than vote remain?

 

[Chris in London]

Superb post.

Chapeau.

Orwell is brilliant.

Fixed ;)

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

If there is another vote that is also democracy.

What if there's another vote and it's remain. Do we have a best out of three. Or possibly Five? If its a mother leave vote. That's a total joke. It will cause more division than now. People who sugest this are just bonkers if they think it will resolve anything.

 

[BobKowalski]

But the result of the first vote has not yet been concluded.

We leave and then hold a referendum on rejoining.

Democratically, remaining is dead, there is NO mandate for it. If we hold a referendum to rejoin, and it wins, that becomes the new mandate.

It’s irrelevant. If people wish to past judgement on the three years to date then they should be free to do so. If the wish to continue to pursue Brexit then they can vote to do so. If they don’t wish to pursue Brexit or feel the process has moved a long way from what was promised then they can vote to bin it.

There comes a point when manically flogging the dead horse ‘in the name of the people’ starts to look unhinged. Or possibly a fetish.

 

[Metal Biker]

No, I’m asking ‘in the final analysis’ whether you would support remain or no deal if they prove to be the only two options on the table. In the first reply you said you abhor no deal, in the second you said you’d vote for any option that saw us leave the EU.

Am I right, and correct me if I’m wrong, in reading your position as being that in a second referendum, on those options, you would vote no deal, even though you abhor it, rather than vote remain?

I abhor both, but would vote no deal, as it at the very least honours the mandate to leave the EU.

Now obviously you might start making that to mean I support leaving with no deal, which I don't. These are YOUR perameters you're presenting to me and i'm answering honestly.

Or would you rather I answer the way you "want" me to?

So for the final time, I would vote in which ever way would honour the result of the first referendum. Remaining is NOT honouring the first referendum, and if you believed in democracy, so would you, given your binary options.

 

[Metal Biker]

It’s irrelevant. If people wish to past judgement on the three years to date then they should be free to do so. If the wish to continue to pursue Brexit then they can vote to do so. If they don’t wish to pursue Brexit or feel the process has moved a long way from what was promised then they can vote to bin it.

There comes a point when manically flogging the dead horse ‘in the name of the people’ starts to look unhinged. Or possibly a fetish.

I'ts nothing to do with "in the name of the people". Leaving the EU is the mandate of the people.

If you refuse to honour the mandate now, there is nothing to suggest we honour any mandate to remaining in the EU.

 

[BobKowalski]

What if there's another vote and it's remain. Do we have a best out of three. Or possibly Five? If its a mother leave vote. That's a total joke. It will cause more division than now. People who sugest this are just bonkers if they think it will resolve anything.

No. We just remain.

But there is nothing to stop Leavers or Brexiteers agitating to leave the EU in the future or putting together a strategy or plan that allows a smooth path to leave the EU and present it for consideration as part of an election manifesto.

 

[Metal Biker]

No. We just remain.

But there is nothing to stop Leavers or Brexiteers agitating to leave the EU in the future or putting together a strategy or plan that allows a smooth path to leave the EU and present it for consideration as part of an election manifesto.

But there's currently no mandate to remain.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'ts nothing to do with "in the name of the people". Leaving the EU is the mandate of the people.

If you refuse to honour the mandate now, there is nothing to suggest we honour any mandate to remaining in the EU.

You don’t have to honour it. People spent decades plotting and agitating to leave the EU. Pity they didn’t put any thought into how to actually do it. Maybe next time they will correct this small, but crucial, oversight.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

No. We just remain.

But there is nothing to stop Leavers or Brexiteers agitating to leave the EU in the future or putting together a strategy or plan that allows a smooth path to leave the EU and present it for consideration as part of an election manifesto.

Wow, So even if it's another vote for leave, we just remain. Lol. You really couldn't care less about anyone else's point of view do you as long as you get your way. At least your honest I supose.

 

[Metal Biker]

You don’t have to honour it. People spent decades plotting and agitating to leave the EU. Pity they didn’t put any thought into how to actually do it. Maybe next time they will correct this small, but crucial, oversight.

Our currently elected Government seems to think so, as does our Parliament, which vowed to honour the result, whatever it was.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

You don’t have to honour it. People spent decades plotting and agitating to leave the EU. Pity they didn’t put any thought into how to actually do it. Maybe next time they will correct this small, but crucial, oversight.

Maybe they aren't being allowed to leave by those that wont honour the vote. Ever thought of it that way? Thought not.

 

[Chris in London]

I abhor both, but would vote no deal, as it at the very least honours the mandate to leave the EU.

Now obviously you might start making that to mean I support leaving with no deal, which I don't. These are YOUR perameters you're presenting to me and i'm answering honestly.

Or would you rather I answer the way you "want" me to?

So for the final time, I would vote in which ever way would honour the result of the first referendum. Remaining is NOT honouring the first referendum, and if you believed in democracy, so would you, given your binary options.

They are the parameters I presented you with because that (in my view) is the choice we will all ultimately be compelled to make. I had no preference as to how you answered, merely a degree of amusement as you backtracked from your first answer and then struggled to reconcile it with the second - especially that line ‘If no such offer is presented, I will not support either.’

Never mind, we’re all entitled to change our minds.

 

[Metal Biker]

Wow, So even if it's another vote for leave, we just remain. Lol. You really couldn't care less about anyone else's point of view do you as long as you get your way. At least your honest I supose.