Pretty sure if there is a Norway plus Brexit , which under the current government is highly unlikely, indy ref talk will subside, as it will probably lose. Despite what many think Sturgeon is a clever political operator and won't risk a referendum she doesn't think will win. She knows a second defeat would finish her.Yeah, but of the 45% of those who voted, many were of that nationalistic mindset, you cannot deny.
So if you'd vote no in a "2nd Scottish referendum as a result of a soft brexit" scenario, and as many are pushing for a soft brexit result, and since no deal cannot legally be implemented, what's with the "England controls Parliament/indyref2" talk all of a sudden?
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Actual Leave campaign pledges are now ignored. They have been airbrushed out of consciousness.
The EU has to have ‘moved’. It has to have moved because of the threat of ‘no deal’. This is important as it fits into the Leave narrative that the EU is ‘weak’ and that the EU ‘needs’ the UK more than we need them so any movement in negotiations has to fit this narrative. Conversely if the UK moves or agrees to an ‘inferior’ deal it’s because of ‘sycophants’ and ‘traitors’ within. It’s not that the EU has more leverage it’s because we defeated ourselves which keeps the belief alive that we are naturally stronger.
The Benn Act is a ‘surrender Act’ because it betrays our natural strength in the negotiations. May’s Withdrawal Agreement was a surrender document and was portrayed as having been dictated by Merkel to May and ‘her creatures’. One of the reasons why the WA was so unnacceptable was this perception it was shaped by the EU and ‘imposed’ on us which to many is intolerable. To them its imposition was due to the ‘weakness of elites’ at the top who are in thrall of the EU.
We form a world view and then confirm reality to that world view. We can quote Cameron as promising that leaving the EU also meant leaving the SM and CU as if it was a positive campaign pledge not a warning that this could happen. Actual Leave campaign pledges are now ignored. They have been airbrushed out of consciousness.
You have the Govt running a taxpayer ad campaign advising/warning/threatening that we will leave on 31st Oct. They also run ads simultaneously telling us there will be more red tape and expense in our interactions with Europe and also trumpet the benefits of Brexit as being less red tape and more freedom whilst removing our freedoms.
That's what the outcome of the first one was meant to do, and then have the SNP focus on issues affecting Scotland, but didn't happen, did it. Barely a month later, the SNP were crying foul and stating "we want another!". Brexit has just been a useful tool for scots nats.Pretty sure if there is a Norway plus Brexit , which under the current government is highly unlikely, indy ref talk will subside, as it will probably lose. Despite what many think Sturgeon is a clever political operator and won't risk a referendum she doesn't think will win. She knows a second defeat would finish her.
Just how will that work if the UK has already left the EU?I wasn't because I voted No in the referendum. If we have a soft Brexit deal, I'll vote No again. If we hard Brexit, or No deal I'll probably vote Yes. Not because of some Braveheart freedom campaign which I haven't seen. Because I want as close an integration and FOM with the EU as possible, imo Scotland needs it, which is why I voted No first time because that was at risk at that time.
England has a larger population and landmass, yes. Are you blaming us for that somehow? Parliament is not representative of 4 nations, but of individual county constituencies. The fact that many of them reside in England is irrelevant because England has no Parliament or assembly like Scotland, Wales and NI. "England" doesn't control Parliament, as each English based MP represents a constituency, not a nation (unlike the SNP MP's mindset, ironically...)
Great Britain is the name of the country, UK the name of the union, not "England".
It was tongue in cheek, but don't even try and tell me some of you weren't suckered in by that sort of narrative. I saw it with my own eyes.
If your main issue is with Parliament, why not try reforming the British Parliament from within, whilst as a member?
We shall see. It was a quite significant margin that Scotland voted to remain in the EU, every single council area voted to remain with 62-38% in favour of remain.
That is a considerable difference between the two, one I believe would be enough to shift the balance in favour of Scottish independence
Please. Not another day when a vacuum of news on a deal means the thread descends into proxy wars over Scottish independence.
Quite torn on this issue. Scotland did clearly vote Remain so I absolutely get that it should perhaps not be dragged out of the EU kicking and screaming, and this is a compelling case for independence should Westminster ever actually managed to leave. Having said that, the SNP are a little too eager to weaponise the debate to keep themselves relevant. The problem with single issue partys is once that issue is dealt with they tend to implode/lose their way - see ukip post referendum for example.Please. Not another day when a vacuum of news on a deal means the thread descends into proxy wars over Scottish independence.
No sorry - you are not understanding things IMO
I have already explained to @Len Rum I think it was - search on fallback and you will find the explanation.
the EU have moved from their recent occupation of an Ideal position to a lesser position - they are still in a good place though.
The point I am making though is that they have indeed moved.
There is the key difference between our opinions......
I can and do fully agree that the act of leaving the EU has and will increase the 'appetite' and 'passion' amongst an increased number of Scots to Leave the UK - so, for the avoidance of doubt, I do not dispute this.
But that is not the argument I am making nor a counter to the 'facts' that 'in my opinion' will see the NO vote returned with a greater majority than before.
The likely outcome might even fuel an increased sense of grievance as the passions are inflamed but commonsense forced acceptance of remaining in the UK - it could well feel like an increased sense of injustice brought about by self-determination - which will be very frustrating.
But you do not need me to convince you - you can do it for yourself
What are, in your opinion, the key reasons put forwards by Remainers that the UK should not Leave the EU?
1. Balance of existing trade is certainly one
2. Proximity to most important markets would be another
3. Freedom of movement across the Union would probably be included
4. Sheer costs of the divorce settlement?
5. Length of time to secure an FTA
6. Costs and difficulties in managing borders?
7. Unravelling so many years of integration?
etc. etc.
Now, turn that around and apply those examples - and many more - to the difficulty for Scotland to leave the UK - once the UK has left the EU.
But the appetite and passion to one side and think it through
Yes, it did happen until Brexit happened.That's what the outcome of the first one was meant to do, and then have the SNP focus on issues affecting Scotland, but didn't happen, did it. Barely a month later, the SNP were crying foul and stating "we want another!". Brexit has just been a useful tool for scots nats.
Quite torn on this issue. Scotland did clearly vote Remain so I absolutely get that it should perhaps not be dragged out of the EU kicking and screaming, and this is a compelling case for independence should Westminster ever actually managed to leave. Having said that, the SNP are a little too eager to weaponise the debate to keep themselves relevant. The problem with single issue partys is once that issue is dealt with they tend to implode/lose their way - see ukip post referendum for example.
Nobody has got a clue right now, remainers and leavers alike should wait until all the details come out before claiming victory
I agree with you. I mean in context to the negotiations though, remainers are claiming the UK has given up ground to the EU and leavers vice versa. Nobody knows yet because these negotiations are designed to be top secretDoubt there will be any winners in all this mess mate.
Please. Not another day when a vacuum of news on a deal means the thread descends into proxy wars over Scottish independence.
Yes, it did happen until Brexit happened.