Another new Brexit thread

[Ric]

And Starmer has already been shown up to be a hypocritical prick. His voice has no integrity.

Like him or not, he surely has more integrity than Boris Johnson. I’d be hard pushed to think of many politicians with less integrity than the current Prime Minister.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Yeah you do.

But don't expect ANY empathy or respect from the leave side should you continue with this narrative.

And if your response to that is "I don't care about what leavers think", then the feeling is mutual, and this is typical of why these talks have lasted three bloody years.

You're talking to someone who WANTS a compromise, who respects remainers concerns and their position. I've relented on the four freedoms, the single market, and a temporary customs union. WHat have you ever relented on?

Mate, I do care. I don't want to argue with you or anyone else. I respect your views even though I don't agree with them. The country was riven from the start as was the HoC and Parliament. What compromise do you want me to make? Believe passionately in remaining in the UK but support leaving? I hate that we have been brought to this, I hate those that have stoked the fires of division. I don't blame you for voting to leave, why do you blame me for wanting to Remain?

 

[Hesperus]

Well I wasn't discussing voting intentions but thanks for your input.

I don't agree that Labour will EVER agree to take us out of the EU, though.

You were asking remainers to come up with an alternative, I was pointing out they can’t. Fair enough if you don’t think Labour will take us out of the EU but their version of Brexit means remaining in a customs union, a soft Brexit. Sounds like the type of Brexit you’ve been advocating.

 

[Metal Biker]

Like him or not, he surely has more integrity than Boris Johnson. I’d be hard pushed to think of many politicians with less integrity than the current Prime Minister.

Yeah, nah.

Corbyn is just as cunty, but in different ways. I say this as someone who is not a Tory, has no intentions of voting Conservative, but would be hard pressed to vote for a Labour government led by Corbyn. You could try and convince me...

 

[Metal Biker]

You were asking remainers to come up with an alternative, I was pointing out they can’t. Fair enough if you don’t think Labour will take us out of the EU but their version of Brexit means remaining in a customs union, a soft Brexit. Sounds like the type of Brexit you’ve been advocating.

Right, so why should I care what remainers think when they offer me, a leaver, no compromise?

Remaining is not a compromise, it's accepting their opinion. And for the record, i've always advocated an EFTA/soft brexit arrangement. Customs Union is NOT an EFTA style brexit, btw, since the EFTA does not envisage a customs union.

 

[Ban-jani]

Well you won’t think that but then again you’re hard of thinking.

 

[Ric]

Yeah, nah.

Corbyn is just as cunty, but in different ways. I say this as someone who is not a Tory, has no intentions of voting Conservative, but would be hard pressed to vote for a Labour government led by Corbyn. You could try and convince me...

Not entirely sure who I’ll be voting for yet, tbh. I think our incumbent MP (who is currently independent) is standing down so will have to wait and see who the respective candidates are.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Trust me, unknowingly, you have.

So i'll ask you straight up; how does remaining appease 17,410,000 leave voters? (more than thrice the population of Scotland, or the entirety of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, just for a mental visual)

It doesn't if indeed there are still 17.4m that support leaving. However, we have spent the last three years trying to agree on what basis we leave and have failed. We could easily spend the nest three years trying to work that out. Why don't you just admit it is a failed venture. Failed by every measure.

 

[Metal Biker]

Not entirely sure who I’ll be voting for yet, tbh. I think our incumbent MP (who is currently independent) is standing down so will have to wait and see who the respective candidates are.

Mine's a safe Labour seat anyway, so it really wouldn't matter. It's a given.

(hurray for FPTP voting!)

 

[Hesperus]

Right, so why should I care what remainers think when they offer me, a leaver, no compromise?

Remaining is not a compromise, it's accepting their opinion. And for the record, i've always advocated an EFTA/soft brexit arrangement.

Exactly you been advocating an EFTA style a Brexit as a compromise. Well, Labours form of Brexit is closer to that than the Torys form of Brexit ( hard Brexit). You’ve also been asking people to get behind a movement to encourage this EFTA Brexit have you not? So a vote for labour in a GE would get you closer would it not?

 

[Ric]

Mine's a safe Labour seat anyway, so it really wouldn't matter. It's a given.

(hurray for FPTP voting!)

Ironically, mine is too.

 

[Metal Biker]

It doesn't if indeed there are still 17.4m that support leaving. However, we have spent the last three years trying to agree on what basis we leave and have failed. We could easily spend the nest three years trying to work that out. Why don't you just admit it is a failed venture. Failed by every measure.

Our parliamentarians have failed. Not that leaving itself is a failed venture.

Otherwise why won't you accept that Scottish independence is a failed venture. You had your chance, but without brexit there is no basis for separation. It's over.

(see how petty this narrative becomes? And here I thought we were making progress)

 

[Metal Biker]

Exactly you been advocating an EFTA style a Brexit as a compromise. Well, Labours form of Brexit is closer to that than the Torys form of Brexit ( hard Brexit). You’ve also been asking people to get behind a movement to encourage this EFTA Brexit have you not? So a vote for labour in a GE would get you closer would it not?

I don't trust Labour to ever carry it out, especially if it won by a majority.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Our parliamentarians have failed. Not that leaving itself is a failed venture.

Otherwise why won't you accept that Scottish independence is a failed venture. You had your chance, but without brexit there is no basis for separation. It's over.

(see how petty this narrative becomes? And here I thought we were making progress)

I don't believe I am being petty. Leaving is a failure because there is no (and never has been) concensus on how to leave. Your view on Scottish independence is your view. Not one that i agree with but probably not for the reasons you think. Thanks for the chat and enjoy the rest of your evening :-)

 

[Metal Biker]

I don't believe I am being petty. Leaving is a failure because there is no (and never has been) concensus on how to leave. Your view on Scottish independence is your view. Not one that i agree with but probably not for the reasons you think. Thanks for the chat and enjoy the rest of your evening :-)

No problem. Hopefully i've revealed a bit more about my intentions and you don't see me as anything like a "typical brexiteer", because nothing could be further from the truth.
I want democracy respected, I want leave voters opinions considered. I want all members of the UK union to be honoured and equal.

So far i've seen a lot of give from the leave side and very little from the remain side, but that's my opinion, although I do feel it's shared by the majority. Mayeb both of us will get what we want, but the likelihood is we'll both end up in unions neither of us want to be a part of. Gut feeling.

 

[Coatigan]

Again, this sort of rhetoric doesn't matter. The standing mandate, the 2016 referendum, which has yet to be enacted, received the most votes.We leave the EU. Manyu leavers have even accepted compromises with remainers to achieve this result. But have we? No. Because of talk like this.

Imagine, if you will, Scotland won the 2014 ref, but the rest of the UK, uhmed and ahh'd and then evenetually proclaimed that "as we now know more of what leaving the UK means, the people of Scotland have since changed their minds", and that became the leading narrative to the indyref negotiations. You'd be fuming, right?

Yeah, DITTO!!

Not in the slightest. I'd jump at the opportunity to be asked again, with a much clearer picture. I absolutely would.
And i have thought about that, a lot. I am being 100% honest about that.

And Stramer isn't saying he/they wouldn't support a deal, just that it should be put back to the people. Having said this repeatedly, i can only say i agree. If people go for it, so be it. At least it stops the 'this isnt the brexit we voted for' narrative. if they don't, then it really wasnt, and the brexit 'voted for' is unachievable. Everyone back to living their lives and improving society, the economy and public services.

 

[Metal Biker]

Not in the slightest. I'd jump at the opportunity to be asked again, with a much clearer picture. I absolutely would.
And i have thought about that, a lot. I am being 100% honest about that.

And Stramer isn't saying he/they wouldn't support a deal, just that it should be put back to the people. Having said this repeatedly, i can only say i agree. If people go for it, so be it. At least it stops the 'this isnt the brexit we voted for' narrative. if they don't, then it really wasnt, and the brexit 'voted for' is unachievable. Everyone back to living their lives and improving society, the economy and public services.

But what if the people of Scotland "change their minds again" 3 years later, or it's claimed to be, by unionists?

See how that sort of narrative isn't helpful? Decisions must be acted upon at the time of their asking, otherwise we're playing no more than the waiting game until the public opinion is forgotten, or perceived to be forgotten.
YOU may regard remainign as a "return to everyone getting on with their lives", but for those of us who voted to leave, and still demand we leave, it will be seen as the biggest betrayal of democracy and the electorate since the reformation era.

 

[Ban-jani]

So far i've seen a lot of give from the leave side

I cannot agree with this.

The leave side, or large elements of it have hardened.

Politicians and public figures who’ve backed Leave, upon finding out the cake and eat it scenario has gone, are now only advocating no deal.

Not all leavers but a significant proportion.

You had the ERG and Farage advocating free trade agreements and Farage even accidentally backing EFTA on Question Time, to them now saying no Withdrawal Agreement is good enough.

And this is backed up by the Brexit Party being the majority party at the last Euro Elections so millions subscribe to it, despite remain favouring parties combining more votes.

 

[Coatigan]

Our parliamentarians have failed. Not that leaving itself is a failed venture.

Otherwise why won't you accept that Scottish independence is a failed venture. You had your chance, but without brexit there is no basis for separation. It's over.

(see how petty this narrative becomes? And here I thought we were making progress)

1st paragraph, i broadly agree, but it isn't as black and white as that (for me). The brexiters (in parliament) are just as complicit in that, for trying to hijack it for their preferred outcome.

2nd paragraph. Yipp, that is the point i keep making / trying to make about brexit.

 

[Metal Biker]

1st paragraph, i broadly agree, but it isn't as black and white as that (for me). The brexiters (in parliament) are just as complicit in that, for trying to hijack it for their preferred outcome.

2nd paragraph. Yipp, that is the point i keep making / trying to make about brexit.

If we stay in the EU, Scotland stays in the UK, with neither movement achieving what they wanted.

There's your compromise.