Another new Brexit thread

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Mëtal Bikër said:
So long as the options are "deal or no deal", because the option to remain isn't one of the outcomes people intended when they voted to leave.

I personally would love to know what remainers preferred "leave" option would be, which is why i'm confident in that scenario, "leave with a deal" would win by a landslide.
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I'd have taken, and accepted the theresa may deal, if you are asking.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Then why would a second referendum be warrented if it's purpose is meant to "allow the people to decide", if the outcome solves nothing?

If we leave the remain argument will be dead, because we cannot "remain" we could only "rejoin". You can't remain in something you're no longer part of.
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The point of a second ref is to establish that whatever deal is ultimately agreed is what the people want and preferable to remain. I believe Mogg made this suggestion in the HoC once. As a remainer I think any deal will be shit and therefore I like the odds - leavers seem dead against the concept (can't think why...).
 
SWP's back said:
Free trade customs union.

I’m anti-Federalisation of Europe absolutely. But the thing is, I’m not a fucking idiot and therefore I’d rather avoid a economical meltdown in the U.K., a depression likely to last a number of years and the like simply to achieve that goal. The trade off isn’t worth it. And the people it would hurt most are the low paid and service sector workers.
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Same here. I am of the low paid, service sector, and i'm content to have made this decision. I am against federalism, and i'm also against the EU's narrative that Europe is "competing" against the US and China, namely my objections are to the attitudes towards the former.

I'd be against being part of a Europe that sees itself competing against the UK's biggest and greatest ally, and would love for us to be in a joint partnership on equal measure with both Europe and the US, with the UK neither favouring one side or the other. It's why i'm against no deal, it's why I want to keep the four freedoms, I merely wish to end the idea of "European" family, when I feel we should be looking more to becoming part of the "global" family.
 
Gaudion M said:
The point of a second ref is to establish that whatever deal is ultimately agreed is what the people want and preferable to remain. I believe Mogg made this suggestion in the HoC once. As a remainer I think any deal will be shit and therefore I like the odds - leavers seem dead against the concept (can't think why...).
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Then we'd need a third.

We need to know what sort of leave scenario the public would want, and then put that against remaining in a 3rd ref. Remain must not then, be an option in a 2nd ref. That's what i've been saying all along.
 
Minimum requirement for democracy is;
Everyone affected gets a vote, and voting compulsory, protests can be done on the ballot paper . End of brexit and fptp might not please the far right and the racist BP.
 
SWP's back said:
There’s a mandatory one every five years.
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But they aren't offering one before a deal is concluded so we can choose which MP's will back or reject the deal agreed with the EU.

Many of us don't believe the current crop of MP's would ever vote for any deal put before them, because agreeing to one would mean we leave the EU and leaving the EU is what they are against, so we, the public, should be allowed to have our say in which MP's will be in place to voting on the deal.
 
Coatigan said:
I'd have taken, and accepted the theresa may deal, if you are asking.
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I was against the WA on the basis that the people of NI were seemingly against it.

Once it became clear that the people of NI were mostly satisfied about being in a joint custom union with both the EU and the UK, I was supportive of it. Shame that our sovereign powers MP's were not of the same mindset. The ERG can't take all the blame (looking at you, Labour)
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Then we'd need a third.

We need to know what sort of leave scenario the public would want, and then put that against remaining in a 3rd ref. Remain must not then, be an option in a 2nd ref. That's what i've been saying all along.
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Yes, if parties campaign for one at elections, and win.
 
SWP's back said:
Free trade customs union.

I’m anti-Federalisation of Europe absolutely. But the thing is, I’m not a fucking idiot and therefore I’d rather avoid a economical meltdown in the U.K., a depression likely to last a number of years and the like simply to achieve that goal. The trade off isn’t worth it. And the people it would hurt most are the low paid and service sector workers.
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I'm not averse to a second referendum based on the type of deal but how many options should there be? Should it only include whatever deal Johnson may agree with the EU or should the CU option be on the ballot paper too? Surely No Deal - as much as I don't want it - would have to be on there as well? I can think of 5 options:

Leave with Johnson's deal (whatever that may be)
Leave but stay in the CU (isn't this Labour's preferred option?)
Leave with no deal
Revoke and Remain
Revoke for now and re-activate at a later date when we're better prepared

The trouble is, looking at that BBC article, No Deal might have a decent chance of winning out of that lot. I actually know Remain voters who are probably more in favour of No Deal than I am because they're sick of the whole charade!
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
But they aren't offering one before a deal is concluded so we can choose which MP's will back or reject the deal agreed with the EU.

Many of us don't believe the current crop of MP's would ever vote for any deal put before them, because agreeing to one would mean we leave the EU and leaving the EU is what they are against, so we, the public, should be allowed to have our say in which MP's will be in place to voting on the deal.
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Like a second ref on the deal the EU have offered?
 
blueinsa said:
In politics we rarely if ever get what we are promised.

I know this much and that is we have never ignored a vote and i remember pre ref the talk of the EU frustrating a decision, much like the Irish until the point they change their minds and give the correct answer, helped by many MP's in parliament.

Exactly what is afoot right now.
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And with very good reason.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
And we can organise trade deals independently from the EU in that scenario?
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Nope. It's a shit outcome but it will end this bullshit. There is no version of brexit where we can organise trade deals independently of the EU though. It might seem like it on paper, but any deal that a country puts in place with the UK will always be subject to the EU kicking off if they feel it causes them any problems, and as the significantly bigger trading partner, they will get their own way. Some countries have even stated they won't put a deal in place with the UK until our relationship with the EU is secured.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
They will change their mind (again) and benn or someone else will bring a motion that there is a second referendum on Boris deal ( what is it we are allowed to call him , as well as ****) or remain.

Because the general public were not intelligent to vote on a simple in or out deal they say , so instead they want them to read and vote on a complex agreement that has taken years to negotiate between politicians civil servants and 100’s of lawyers - or stay as we are.
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This is the EU way and it allows Remainers to feel good about themselves
 
bluejon said:
Nope. It's a shit outcome but it will end this bullshit. There is no version of brexit where we can organise trade deals independently of the EU though. It might seem like it on paper, but any deal that a country puts in place with the UK will always be subject to the EU kicking off if they feel it causes them any problems, and as the significantly bigger trading partner, they will get their own way. Some countries have even stated they won't put a deal in place with the UK until our relationship with the EU is secured.
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Then it doesn't satisfy what one of the core elements of independence then does it!

It's just remaining in, so no wonder you support that outcome. Some compromise.
 
Gaudion M said:
Doesn't mean your right...
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*you're

Never said I was 'right', I stated my opinion on how your 2nd ref claim doesn't satisfy leave voters and wouldn't be beneficial to anyone except remainers, and why should leavers accept a 2nd referendum when we have nothing to gain from it?
 
blueinsa said:
I'm being a democrat.
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You’re being bloody minded

Mëtal Bikër said:
So long as the options are "deal or no deal", because the option to remain isn't one of the outcomes people intended when they voted to leave.

I personally would love to know what remainers preferred "leave" option would be, which is why i'm confident in that scenario, "leave with a deal" would win by a landslide.
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What would be wrong with offering people the opportunity to vote remain based on the deal on offer not being what they envisioned?
 
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