Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

So leave voters ... Boris’s deal. Is this what you voted for in the original referendum ?

As Farage, the biggest sway for leave Voters says this deal is 95% the same as Mays in which everyone went mental.

So. Common sense. Surely you ask the pubic.

A) Boris Deal
B) Remain

I really don’t see what’s wrong with this, it’s not some clever ploy by remainers to keep us in the EU. It is simply asking the public - now you know the terms of leaving (Which was completely different to what you originally voted for) do you want too leave under Boris deal or remain.

so you are going to ask the public who could not understand a simple in out referendum apparently to Understand a legal agreement in detail ?

you want to ask the public to back a deal which the House of Commons themselves have not approved and manny have said is a bad deal

you expect leave voters to believe that if they voted for the deal that parlaiment would implement it, because this time it’s different?

you expect the result either way would resolve the division in the country?

Lib Dem’s have already said they want revoke and would not respect a second referendum result? ( although if it went there way they would , that’s modern liberal democracy for you )

 

[Ban-jani]

Precisely. Which is one of the primary reasons I am now supporting Leave. The only thing that makes this go away is getting on with it.

The damage we have done and continue to do because we don’t move on from this is snowballing.

Johnson’s Deal will make us worth off, for sure but at least we can negotiate a FTA, focus on domestic policies and making our country better and we’d have respected the referendum, despite it being a terrible idea in the first place.

 

[Vic]

Yes, it is.

If it was ever not obvious that the manoeuvrings of the 450+ Remain MPs were aimed at preventing Brexit, then that veil has been lifted and it is more and more obvious by the day.

So a new referendum is a clever ploy to keep us in the EU? Or a democratic way to see if enough people have come to their senses?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Is it wrong to ask the people if they want this deal, now we finally have an idea what Brexit means? Other than Brexit.

In some ways no, and I argued from your side for quite some time.

But in others, yes it is. We had a referendum in 2016 with a clear binary choice. And not only that, both sides said this was a one-off opportunity to vote and that the result would be respected and implemented. There was nothing on the ballot paper about what sort of Brexit might or might not be acceptable. Merely a commitment from all concerned that we'd respect it, get on with it and implement it. Further endorsed by the huge majority voting through A50 and a GE in which the main parties both committed to getting Brexit done. And we now have a deal, which is broadly acceptable to a majority of MPs, and probably very much so were they to put their party politics to one side.

So it is not really on, to now go back and ask if we should cancel it. If there was a second referendum with only Leave options on the ballot paper, then that would be different. e.g. do we want a CU, Norway+, and FTA etc. But we all know that's not really what this is about. It's about people like me who lost, who were never happy with the result, having another go at stopping it. I can't honestly say that should be allowed.

 

[blueinsa]

In your opinion.

I’m always wary of people who speak with such certainty. To me it betrays a lack of critical thinking.

Perhaps you could back up your assertion with some logic.

Said without even the slightest bit of shame dave.

 

[Vic]

That doesn’t stop the argument.

Leaving with a deal and a FTA is the only way I think.

But leaving with this deal doesn't mean you get a FTA. So it's not the only way it could go.

 

[Chippy_boy]

So a new referendum is a clever ploy to keep us in the EU? Or a democratic way to see if enough people have come to their senses?

The former, very obviously.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Is it wrong to ask the people if they want this deal, now we finally have an idea what Brexit means? Other than Brexit.

Ask yourself the question. Do you want it for ...

a) checking its suitability or
b) for a chance to re-cast your original vote or
c) to reduce the effectiveness of the government for political reasons

... because all three things are at play in a second vote. If it's a) then that's fine but there are too many people in b) and c). It's like the distrust that people have in Boris Johnson just the other way round.

I don't care what the outcome of Brexit is - deal, no deal, revoke - but another referendum is trying to answer the question by repeating the same mistake that created the first problem.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The damage we have done and continue to do because we don’t move on from this is snowballing.

Johnson’s Deal will make us worth off, for sure but at least we can negotiate a FTA, focus on domestic policies and making our country better and we’d have respected the referendum, despite it being a terrible idea in the first place.

Agreed. Exactly where my head is at.

 

[Vic]

Precisely. Which is one of the primary reasons I am now supporting Leave. The only thing that makes this go away is getting on with it.

What is up with you two? This doesn't make it go away!

 

[west didsblue]

I think the German government should announce the imposition of 100% export duty on Werthers Originals when Brexit happens. That would make us revoke A50 within hours. Problem solved.

 

[Chippy_boy]

What is up with you two? This doesn't make it go away!

It starts to make it go away. Rome was built one brick at a time.

 

[Rascal]

Much of your analysis probably correct. And I agree about one thing in particular which is that the fog of Brexit clouds everything.

However, I think you are brainwashed by your own deeply-held beliefs. So strong is your desire to see a truly socialist Britain than you switch off to any and all evidence that there is fuck all chance of there ever being such a state. Well not in the next 100 years anyway.

I've pointed out to you repeatedly that the UK of today bears no correlation to the UK of the 60's and 70's. (Or Germany or Russia in the mid 1800's for that matter!) That the Labour policies from back then, no longer resonate with a majority of the electorate. And that this misalignment between your aspirations and reality, as we inexorably become richer, is getting wider, not converging.

This is evidenced not only by the dismal failure of any Labour leader with any sort of firm(ish) left leanings over the past 50 years, but also across the world as a whole. Even the Nordics, with an outlook I imagine more similar to that to wish you aspire, are capitalist states and in the case of Norway, one with vast riches from it's oil reserves, and so not in any way comparable to the UK.

Socialism is dead. Or at the very least, sleeping for a long, long time. In 100 years perhaps when AI and robots have taken over the world, it may come back. But not in your lifetime.

¡No pasarán! Comrade. ¡No pasarán!

 

[west didsblue]

The damage we have done and continue to do because we don’t move on from this is snowballing.

Johnson’s Deal will make us worth off, for sure but at least we can negotiate a FTA, focus on domestic policies and making our country better and we’d have respected the referendum, despite it being a terrible idea in the first place.

Agreed. Exactly where my head is at.

So in the event a vote between Johnson's deal and remain happens you'd vote for the deal?

 

[Vic]

There is internal battles in all parties, once it’s clear we’ve left with a deal and we move onto negotiations, I think the domestic agenda and beating Corbyn will be on their agenda.

No. It will still all be about what sort of FT deal. Can't you see the ERG / WTO lines already being drawn? Farage chipping away with "we've not really left"?

 

[Vic]

The damage we have done and continue to do because we don’t move on from this is snowballing.

Johnson’s Deal will make us worth off, for sure but at least we can negotiate a FTA, focus on domestic policies and making our country better and we’d have respected the referendum, despite it being a terrible idea in the first place.

Will they be the second easiest negotiations in history?

 

[lancs blue]

Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick tying himself up in knots.

But the Secretary of state for housing, communities and local government says: “We have absolutely no intention of rowing back on the very high standards of workers' rights that we enjoy in this country. We're saying that Parliament will decide and that's the point of taking back control - trusting Parliament to make important decisions on workers' rights or the environment."

But apparently Parliament cannot be trusted to scrutinise in detail the most important piece of legislation in nearly 50 years, it's expected to just rubber stamp that.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

It starts to make it go away. Rome was built one brick at a time.

And was started by digging a big ditch, reputedly, and then a quick bit of gloating and a murder.
It's a fun image.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

What is up with you two? This doesn't make it go away!

Nothing makes it go away but it resets the democracy angle. Any further voting on the subject is done via means of an election or a better framed referendum. The issue therefore is the pound. Re-joining means we have to adopt the euro which means we never will rejoin, however, perhaps the solution therefore from the EU is that they allow us 10 years to re-join on the same terms should we decide to, allowing political parties to campaign on a return to the current status.

 

[Vic]

In some ways no, and I argued from your side for quite some time.

But in others, yes it is. We had a referendum in 2016 with a clear binary choice. And not only that, both sides said this was a one-off opportunity to vote and that the result would be respected and implemented. There was nothing on the ballot paper about what sort of Brexit might or might not be acceptable. Merely a commitment from all concerned that we'd respect it, get on with it and implement it. Further endorsed by the huge majority voting through A50 and a GE in which the main parties both committed to getting Brexit done. And we now have a deal, which is broadly acceptable to a majority of MPs, and probably very much so were they to put their party politics to one side.

So it is not really on, to now go back and ask if we should cancel it. If there was a second referendum with only Leave options on the ballot paper, then that would be different. e.g. do we want a CU, Norway+, and FTA etc. But we all know that's not really what this is about. It's about people like me who lost, who were never happy with the result, having another go at stopping it. I can't honestly say that should be allowed.

Haven't you spent 3 years on here wanting to cancel Brexit?