Another new Brexit thread

[George Hannah]

Johnson at PMQs “There will be no checks between Northern Ireland and GB"

Now that is a lie.

Customs declarations are not checks in the lexicon of true believers.

 

[Len Rum]

Johnson at PMQs “There will be no checks between Northern Ireland and GB"

Now that is a lie.

Notwithstanding the fact that we live in a post truth era, even Trump would have been embarrassed to have made that statement.

 

[Coatigan]

That's what they did the last time.

Both Labour and the Conservatives stated they were committed to brexit. They had different views on how it should be achieved, but both were parties that "respected the referendum result". The public has seen that one is committed and the other is uhming and ahing.

In fairness, yes. Nobody really knew or suggested what it was they'd be delivering or how. And imho neither ultimately cares, both are using it to try strengthen their own positions and popularity. One is doing better than the other.

 

[mcfc1632]

Yes, mate. You really, really struggle with ‘I told you so’.

Thank you for your concern - My natural diffidence has been something that has held be back throughout my career(s)

I have gotten by though because results are always compelling and when one is consistent in the position they hold and those positions are repeatedly proven to be correct - my experience is that performance trumps diffidence

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Lol, but as it plainly shows, each and every one of them is a lying, dissembling ****, constantly singling out
Johnson by those who hate him may make them feel better, but right there is virtually the whole fucking shower of them.
Grieve is the one that sickens me the most, what he was lying about here is available in a full vid somewhere, but you
have the whole wretched, rotten cabal of party leaders, senior front bench MP's, and sundry other undesirables
shown up for what they are.

Johnson is discernibly the worst of the lot.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I am now officially a leaver, and it's got to be by 31 October.

Another awful unintended consequence of Brexit.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No, not what i'm saying.

In those words maybe not, but you said that if in a 2nd referendum Leave lost, then we'd have to remain.

Whereas we had a 1st referendum in which Remain lost, but we don't have to leave, we can simply change our minds.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Bercow has been refusing Johnson a vote because Parliament has already voted, so uses the arcane Erskine May procedure.
He did the same when May tried to get her deal through.
Labour apparently want to bring amendments for another referendum and staying in the customs union.
These have already been rejected by the house, so, if the little shit isn't partisan, these should be thrown out also.
Anyone fancy a bet?

 

[Didsbury Dave]

you
Your perspective misapprehends human nature. The notion that people who voted to leave will (in the main) view it as a near miss is wholly misconceived.

I think you're wrong about this. Remain marches pull hundreds of thousands. Leave marches pull hundreds.

99.9% of the stubborn Leave voters are ordinary people who don't really understand it and just want it over.

It's a massive if of course, but if there were a 2nd ref and we revoked, there'd be a week or two of rioting and it would settle down to grumbles and Facebook pictures. the Tommy Robinson types would be the only ones kicking up a stink and they are nasty, but there aren't many of them.

 

[purplenose]

Another awful unintended consequence of Brexit.

Thanks for posting this it has painted a picture in my mind that is going to take a long time to get rid of ffs.

 

[hgblue]

You and I disagree about the likely outcome of the GE, and who’s to know who’s right, but I can say with some certainty that any chance Johnson’s got of getting a majority will dissipate if he nails his mast to a ultra-hard Brexit; as this will lose him a significant number of votes in the suburban marginals populated in large numbers by the professional middle-classes.

Perhaps the advantage I have over you in guessing the outcome of the next election is that I know how Leavers are likely to behave. Contrary to popular opinion we are not stupid and realise that voting for the Brexit Party in a constituency where the Tories are currently in first or second place would be counter productive. Boris has successfully convinced the vast majority of Leave voters that he's serious about delivering Brexit (suspending Parliament, chucking the wreckers out, reaching a deal with the EU) so I don't expect the Brexit Party to be a significant factor. Conservative Remainers prefer to leave with a deal rather than having Jeremy Corbyn, and I doubt the manifesto will be worded as no deal being the objective, rather that he will continue to strive for a deal but no deal must be on the table to help him with his negotiation. This will be enough for him to point to having a mandate for it if the EU tries taking the piss again.

 

[aguero93:20]

Bercow has been refusing Johnson a vote because Parliament has already voted, so uses the arcane Erskine May procedure.
He did the same when May tried to get her deal through.
Labour apparently want to bring amendments for another referendum and staying in the customs union.
These have already been rejected by the house, so, if the little shit isn't partisan, these should be thrown out also.
Anyone fancy a bet?

Rejected as amendments to a different WA or as separate motions.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Depends entirely on your morals, individualy and collectively. I'd say pursuing ot blindly knowing what we now know, and how we know we got here, is morally wrong.

The point is, still time to check the direction before going further.

Maybe. I argued from your side for 3 years.

But increasingly what I've come to think it's also morally wrong to disrespect the 17.4m people who voted out after being PROMISED that their vote would be respected and honoured.

Neither having a 2nd referendum nor not having one, is perfect. Ultimately one side will feel wronged, so for me having a 2nd one does not make things better.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Johnson is discernibly the worst of the lot.

Disagree mate, but I understand your stance, anyone at odds with the Tories/Brexit will probably agree with you.
My point is, constantly calling just one politician won't wash, when most are exactly the same.

 

[blueparrot]

Maybe. I argued from your side for 3 years.

But increasingly what I've come to think it's also morally wrong to disrespect the 17.4m people who voted out after being PROMISED that their vote would be respected and honoured.

Neither having a 2nd referendum nor not having one, is perfect. Ultimately one side will feel wronged, so for me having a 2nd one does not make things better.

You were right first time, maybe look back at your posts and reconvince yourself.

 

[aguero93:20]

Thanks for posting this it has painted a picture in my mind that is going to take a long time to get rid of ffs.

Johnson really should take note, she's probably converted more remainers and soft brexiteers to his side with one tweet than he's managed in 3 months.

 

[BobKowalski]

Keep on digging...

‘PM said rather too candidly "The Scottish Parliament has no role in approving this deal" - errr, his WA Bill's own explanatory notes list 17 instances where legislative consent motion required (last column, Yes)’ @BBC

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2019-2020/0007/en/20007en.pdf

 

[Coatigan]

Bercow has been refusing Johnson a vote because Parliament has already voted, so uses the arcane Erskine May procedure.
He did the same when May tried to get her deal through.
Labour apparently want to bring amendments for another referendum and staying in the customs union.
These have already been rejected by the house, so, if the little shit isn't partisan, these should be thrown out also.
Anyone fancy a bet?

Not in the same parliamentary session, which is what that procedure refers to, i think? and i think those were indicative votes, rather than amendments or motions.
Anyway, has anyone actually proposed them yet? you could well be right if they do. Can't see it myself, yet.

 

[west didsblue]

Bercow has been refusing Johnson a vote because Parliament has already voted, so uses the arcane Erskine May procedure.
He did the same when May tried to get her deal through.
Labour apparently want to bring amendments for another referendum and staying in the customs union.
These have already been rejected by the house, so, if the little shit isn't partisan, these should be thrown out also.
Anyone fancy a bet?

Absolutely no comparison but you probably know that.
The indicative votes in March were on ideas not binding motions or legislation, and even if they were identical, which it would be difficult to prove as they haven't been written yet, it is a different session of Parliament thanks to the recent Queen's speech.
Whichever way you look at it your criticism of the speaker looks very much like sour grapes because he followed the rules of Parliament rather than the whims of your dear leader.

 

[purplenose]

I think you're wrong about this. Remain marches pull hundreds of thousands. Leave marches pull hundreds.

99.9% of the stubborn Leave voters are ordinary people who don't really understand it and just want it over.

It's a massive if of course, but if there were a 2nd ref and we revoked, there'd be a week or two of rioting and it would settle down to grumbles and Facebook pictures. the Tommy Robinson types would be the only ones kicking up a stink and they are nasty, but there aren't many of them.

I think you are wrong on several counts.

Your view of what you call stubborn remainers is rather simplistic and may I suggest wishful thinking. In the event that we do not leave the EU no matter what the circumstances then there will be a serious back lash. It will not go away either. After all even the most ardent of remainers cannot surely believe that in the coming years there will not be plenty of reasons for the leavers to take to the streets.

Likewise if we leave with or without a deal there will be plenty of reason for the remainers to act up as well.

My view is which ever way we turn there are going to be turbulent times ahead made worse by the arrogant and entrenched views held by even the moderate on both sides of the argument. More so when it comes to views on those on the opposite side of the argument.

The only hope now is to minimise the split in our society and in my view the best way of doing that is having a second referendum, as a leaver that sticks in my throat. I can justify my views partly on the basis that we were all had off with the first referendum and do hold the view that we are a lot more educated on the matter now.

In the event of that second vote I personally would still vote leave, once again only by a fag paper. I am not convinced that there would be a large remain win as many like to think and infact would still think leave could easily win again.