Another new Brexit thread

[Gabriel]

His appointment as DPP predated Cameron taking office.

True. Apologies.

 

[Gabriel]

You'll notice Sir Keir isn't at the top table on the FT graphic - I think you'll find he'll be marching to a different drum very shortly along with a large number of the PLP.

Out into the frozen tundra.
I’m off to sleep, but I’ll check under the bed first. ;-)

 

[George Hannah]

Out into the frozen tundra.
I’m off to sleep, but I’ll check under the bed first. ;-)

Secure in the knowledge that the Communist Party of Great Britain did not put up candidates in any Labour Party contested seat in the 2017 election and will act in the same way at the next one on condition Jezzer still leads the line. Sleep well comrade.

 

[Vic]

No, just that you seem to have deceived yourself into believing the Labour Party isn't Marxist and therefore fail to communicate this important fact to the proletariat when telephone canvassing at the behest of your Communist controllers.

Auditioning for Senator McCarthy?

 

[Vic]

Secure in the knowledge that the Communist Party of Great Britain did not put up candidates in any Labour Party contested seat in the 2017 election and will act in the same way at the next one on condition Jezzer still leads the line. Sleep well comrade.

The Communist Party of Great Britain was dissolved in 1991.

The Communist Party of Britain didn't put up a candidate in any seat in the 2017 GE. It has never had more than 9 candidates in any GE and has never got near two thousand votes in total.

Just because you don't think you're paranoid it doesn't mean you're not paranoid.

 

[bluethrunthru]

The Communist Party of Great Britain was dissolved in 1991.

The Communist Party of Britain didn't put up a candidate in any seat in the 2017 GE. It has never had more than 9 candidates in any GE and has never got near two thousand votes in total.

Just because you don't think you're paranoid it doesn't mean you're not paranoid.

Hahahaha - as I keep pointing out they are so worried about someone they write off as a no mark. As fake news goes George H has out done most there - how many candidates did Mosleys BUF party put up in 2017? Does George know lol? Maybe he googled them rather than the Communist Party of Britain lol.

Just for balance the Communist Party of Britain has supported Labour since 2017. Cue George to pile in and tell us how that is a bad thing. Not that their 734 members at the time of the 2017 GE could have made any major impact lol.

 

[Coatigan]

Heard someone on the radio today say, if the Tory’s are so confident of winning a majority they could make an offer to labour to revoke A50 in return for them agreeing to an election. That would rule out no deal for labour so they’d have no reason to say no to an election. It’s a gamble for the Tory’s but they’d get the election they want and could campaign on leaving the EU as soon as they are in power?

I’ve no idea if that’s feasible but it’s an option to move it along. I can’t see labour agreeing to an election now, they dont just want no deal ruled out during this proposed extension but they want it ruled out full stop.

Interesting.

Would certainly rule out no deal, and would leave no alternative than an election.

How the blame game is sold to the public thereafter is up for grabs by both. Either would have some moral bravado to promote tbh.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Come on - admit you don't go round asking them. That is absolutely a travesty of the truth.

I never claimed to have done, so I don't need to "admit" anything. But since you raise it, I do know plenty of life-long Labour voters who will not vote for the Marxists under any circumstances. Everyone knows such people, because it is a common theme. Heck it's even a common theme on here!

Why do you think Liar Corbyn's approval rating is the lowest of any Labour opposition leader ever? Why do you think Labour MPs voted to get rid of him with an 82% majority. The guy and his policies are toxic.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Heard someone on the radio today say, if the Tory’s are so confident of winning a majority they could make an offer to labour to revoke A50 in return for them agreeing to an election. That would rule out no deal for labour so they’d have no reason to say no to an election. It’s a gamble for the Tory’s but they’d get the election they want and could campaign on leaving the EU as soon as they are in power?

I’ve no idea if that’s feasible but it’s an option to move it along. I can’t see labour agreeing to an election now, they dont just want no deal ruled out during this proposed extension but they want it ruled out full stop.

This really is a lie from Labour. Don't get me wrong, I am sure some of them want to rule out no deal.But that is only an excuse, it's not the reason they are blocking a GE.

Why? Because the reality is, they cannot rule out no deal. It is impossible for them to do so, because one parliament cannot bind a future one, which can always overturn previous legislation. (Rightly so, of course).

So the only way it can be done would be by amending the WA again, back to a similar version which was defeated 3 times. That is not happening with this parliamentary arithmetic. The only way realistically it can happen is if a new parliament has a majority for such, after a GE.

Either way then, "no deal" is not being prevented until either after a GE or until the conclusion of the transition period. Which if Labour won't support the current WA, is years away.

 

[Vic]

Hahahaha - as I keep pointing out they are so worried about someone they write off as a no mark. As fake news goes George H has out done most there - how many candidates did Mosleys BUF party put up in 2017? Does George know lol? Maybe he googled them rather than the Communist Party of Britain lol.

Just for balance the Communist Party of Britain has supported Labour since 2017. Cue George to pile in and tell us how that is a bad thing. Not that their 734 members at the time of the 2017 GE could have made any major impact lol.

I had exactly the same thought about the BUF! And of course we can guess which way Mosley supporters voted in the referendum.

I never claimed to have done, so I don't need to "admit" anything. But since you raise it, I do know plenty of life-long Labour voters who will not vote for the Marxists under any circumstances. Everyone knows such people, because it is a common theme. Heck it's even a common theme on here!

Why do you think Liar Corbyn's approval rating is the lowest of any Labour opposition leader ever? Why do you think Labour MPs voted to get rid of him with an 82% majority. The guy and his policies are toxic.

If they are lifelong Labour people most of them will be Remainers. And do they say they will not vote for "the Marxists" or that they will not vote for Corbyn?

Which policies are toxic? Increase the minimum wage? Tory policy. Renationalise the railways? Backdoor Tory policy. Attack tax avoiders? Ok you got me there.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I had exactly the same thought about the BUF! And of course we can guess which way Mosley supporters voted in the referendum.



If they are lifelong Labour people most of them will be Remainers. And do they say they will not vote for "the Marxists" or that they will not vote for Corbyn?

Which policies are toxic? Increase the minimum wage? Tory policy. Renationalise the railways? Backdoor Tory policy. Attack tax avoiders? Ok you got me there.

That you do not understand the feelings of the majority of the UK population, comes as zero surprise.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Admittedly the clocks go back tonight, but there’s not much difference between what you predict here and the situation in spring 2017, save the lead was a mere 21 points.
You’re not a government advisor by any chance? ;-)

Of course the Tories could cock it up again. That's the reason they lost their big lead last time, it was because May was fucking useless. Maybe they will fuck it up again, but they could never run a campaign as utterly useless as the last one.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You're a joke.

You're good at one thing Vic, I'll give you that: Irony.

 

[hgblue]

Of course the Tories could cock it up again. That's the reason they lost their big lead last time, it was because May was fucking useless. Maybe they will fuck it up again, but they could never run a campaign as utterly useless as the last one.

Boris Johnson is not Theresa May, he’s a far bette campaigner. By the way, the latest poll I’ve seen shows a 16 point lead now.

 

[Chippy_boy]

What amuses me greatly is the change in tone on this thread. For years on here, the lefties have been hurling abuse at Tories, and indeed at Tories on here. The vitriol has been horrendous. And lately it's been ratcheted up with all this Liar Johnson abuse every other sentence.

And now when Tories start to reply in kind, the lefties get all upset. Well sorry but you can suck it up.

 

[George Hannah]

The Communist Party of Great Britain was dissolved in 1991.

The Communist Party of Britain didn't put up a candidate in any seat in the 2017 GE. It has never had more than 9 candidates in any GE and has never got near two thousand votes in total.

Just because you don't think you're paranoid it doesn't mean you're not paranoid.

'You should be ashamed of yourself......' I can hear Len McCluskey now lol. He and every member of the CP, SWP, Class War, etc back the current Labour Party leadership to their 100% Marxist core. They've duped you and are trying to do the same to the British electorate. Vote Corbyn against Capitalism, the USA, the Jewish conspiracy, NATO, Private Property, Profits etc etc and for the Unions, Clause 4, Disarmament and Freedom Fighters around the world - especially the anti-British ones. Deserved oblivion awaits.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I never claimed to have done, so I don't need to "admit" anything. But since you raise it, I do know plenty of life-long Labour voters who will not vote for the Marxists under any circumstances. Everyone knows such people, because it is a common theme. Heck it's even a common theme on here!

Why do you think Liar Corbyn's approval rating is the lowest of any Labour opposition leader ever? Why do you think Labour MPs voted to get rid of him with an 82% majority. The guy and his policies are toxic.

So these policies are toxic?

1. All school class sizes to be under 30 pupils.
2. Ban opening of any new grammar schools
3. Stop the sell off of the NHS (Abolish the NHS Health act of 2012.
4. Implement to Eu Tax Avoidance directive (should raise about £6bill)
5. Restore Nurses training bursaries (just putting back what we used to have)
6. Register and fines for landlords who rent out bad accommodation
7. Introduce a National Education service
8. Grant UK Citizenship for Eu residents.
9. Eradicate rough sleeping by 2020
10. End the public sector pay freeze.
11. Reverse the Capital Gains tax cut (going back to what we used to have and raising £735 mill)
12. Reverse the Inheritance Tax cut (going back to what we used to have raising £1 bill)
13. Provide an allowance for unpaid carers (who save us and the NHS a fortune)
14. Apply VAT to the purchase of Private medical insurance.
15.Apply VAT to the purchase of private education.
16. Build 100000 council / social homes per annum.
17. Halt cuts to women's refuges,
18. Free School meals
19. £1.5 bill for social care
20. Ban Fracking


Really ? Or is it the renationalisation of stuff that worries you

Water Utilities ( suppose to introduce competition but I still cant shop around .... and any profit made seems to be shunted off to a hedge fund based in Hong Kong)
Rail (what a farce that is .... my local franchise is owned by the Dutch Government ... any profit made is used to reduce train fares in Holland)
Electricity ( My supplier is E.on .... a German company .... that buys its energy from RWE - also an E.on company.... that outsources its billing and customers services to E.on business services a separate company... do you see how it works yet?

Or maybe its stuff like

Halting Surestart closures
Stop selling arms to unethical countries like Saudi Arabia
Doubling the number of apprenticeships
Free parking at hospitals
5% of premier league TV rights diverted to grass routes football
3000 more prison officers (after all we dont really need them do we - our prisons get glowing reports dont they and we are only going back to what we use to have )
3000 more firefighters (not even close to what we used to have)





All policies which if you actually stopped to read and think about them actually BENEFIT society - and theres over 100 of them -

 

[Rascal]

Everybody who intends to vote Labour with Corbyn/McDonnell & McCluskey et al in control should be told it's a Marxist party if they don't already know - that's no lie.

This is peak Georgie Porgie.

Let me make it short and simple. For Marx the society is divided into owners of the means of production and the proletariat i.e, the labour class, which has nothing to sell but its physical labour.The Communist Manifesto begins with Marx's interpretation of class struggle. As long as the society continues to be divided into two classes, there is no chance for any good of the labourers. So, Marx provides us with his remedy to make the society equal for all and that is the proletarian revolution. The revolution will result into a communist society based on the idea of “from each according to his ability to each according to his needs”. Communism will not immediately follow the revolution but has to pass through a transitional phase of SOCIALISM.

Socialism is the important word here because Corbyn and McDonnell DONT envisage the endgame of Marxism just the path. Marxism ultimately is an attempt to remove the disjoint between human essence and its existence. At the heart of Marx's thought is his deep concern for man and his future. For him, human essence is a totality of social relationship. His central criticism of capitalism is that man was stripped of his human essence when he first fell into the class of the exploited and faced the destruction of all humanity in him under capitalism. it is a scientific revolutionary philosophy which points the way to get rid of exploitation, oppression and injustice in the society which is surely a good thing.

This bit

from wiki explains the difference better than i can

"• Marxism is more theoretical in nature whereas Socialism is more practical in nature. This is one of the main differences between Marxism and Socialism. • Another difference between Marxism and Socialism is that Marxism is political in its concepts whereas Socialism is economic in its ideologies."

Socialism is economic in its ideologies. In other words, it can be said that Socialism is an economic system wherein all the means of production are owned by the public. Socialism aims at the co-operative system of control over the means of production. Moreover, Socialism is based heavily on cooperative social relations and self-management. It aims at the elimination of hierarchy in the management of political affairs. Hence, it can be said that Socialism too is a kind of political thought though its ideas are based more on the economic issues of the development of society. Socialism aims at the achievement of the state of production for use. Its ideas see to it that the allocation inputs are carried out in the right manner to satisfy human needs. This is the crux of socialism. Socialism is a mixture of reformation and revolution in equal proportions

Here are some of the differences between what a Socialist Labour Party believes and what Marx envisaged.


• Marxism is more theoretical in nature whereas Socialism is more practical in nature. This is one of the main differences between Marxism and Socialism.

• Another difference between Marxism and Socialism is that Marxism is political in its concepts whereas Socialism is economic in its ideologies.

• Socialism speaks about the public ownership of the property and natural resources. Marxism speaks about creating a society where there is no discrimination between rich and poor.

• Marxism speaks about changing the society through a proletariat revolution. Socialism speaks about changing the society by changing the economic structure of the country.

• Marxism proletariat revolution becomes possible because there is an imbalance between social classes. This is created as the bourgeoisie manipulates the working class as the bourgeoisie own capital, land, and entrepreneurship. However, in Socialism, such class discrimination is not possible as the means of production are owned by the public. So, there is no need for a proletariat revolution to happen in a society with socialism.

• In a society where Marxism theory of working class rising against the bourgeoisie happens, there is a largely competitive market. In Socialism, market competitiveness does not exist as the society is made for collectivism and collaboration, not for competition.

• Marxism is pure revolution. Socialism has equal proportions of revolution as well as reformations. The definition of revolution here does not necessarily mean it is violent overthrow just merely revolution by ballot box.

These are the differences between Marxism and Socialism so to categorise Corbyn and McDonnell as full blown Marxists is simply untrue, they are Socialists influnced by Marx.


George you sound like an American in the throes of Macarthyism looking for bogeymen where none exist, but I understand it, because the power of the right wing media in this country loves to use convenient labels that encourage opprobrium towards any form of politics that may be even slightly anti-capitalist. When an election is finally called the rhetoric will go through the roof and i am sure the likes of the Mail, Sun and Telegraph will be apocolyptic about Corbyn, but then its those newspapers owners that have most to lose from a victory of the left.


So do democracy a favour George and call it properly, using Marxist as an insult is not only a bit ridiculus but it also opens up others to accusations of fascism and i hope and believe nobody here wants either a full blown Fascist or Communist state, just a victory for good Socialist values of fairness and freedom for all.

 

[Chippy_boy]

So these policies are toxic?

1. All school class sizes to be under 30 pupils.
2. Ban opening of any new grammar schools
3. Stop the sell off of the NHS (Abolish the NHS Health act of 2012.
4. Implement to Eu Tax Avoidance directive (should raise about £6bill)
5. Restore Nurses training bursaries (just putting back what we used to have)
6. Register and fines for landlords who rent out bad accommodation
7. Introduce a National Education service
8. Grant UK Citizenship for Eu residents.
9. Eradicate rough sleeping by 2020
10. End the public sector pay freeze.
11. Reverse the Capital Gains tax cut (going back to what we used to have and raising £735 mill)
12. Reverse the Inheritance Tax cut (going back to what we used to have raising £1 bill)
13. Provide an allowance for unpaid carers (who save us and the NHS a fortune)
14. Apply VAT to the purchase of Private medical insurance.
15.Apply VAT to the purchase of private education.
16. Build 100000 council / social homes per annum.
17. Halt cuts to women's refuges,
18. Free School meals
19. £1.5 bill for social care
20. Ban Fracking


Really ? Or is it the renationalisation of stuff that worries you

Water Utilities ( suppose to introduce competition but I still cant shop around .... and any profit made seems to be shunted off to a hedge fund based in Hong Kong)
Rail (what a farce that is .... my local franchise is owned by the Dutch Government ... any profit made is used to reduce train fares in Holland)
Electricity ( My supplier is E.on .... a German company .... that buys its energy from RWE - also an E.on company.... that outsources its billing and customers services to E.on business services a separate company... do you see how it works yet?

Or maybe its stuff like

Halting Surestart closures
Stop selling arms to unethical countries like Saudi Arabia
Doubling the number of apprenticeships
Free parking at hospitals
5% of premier league TV rights diverted to grass routes football
3000 more prison officers (after all we dont really need them do we - our prisons get glowing reports dont they and we are only going back to what we use to have )
3000 more firefighters (not even close to what we used to have)





All policies which if you actually stopped to read and think about them actually BENEFIT society - and theres over 100 of them -

What's toxic is the spend spend tax spend tax tax tax spend nationalise tax meddle interfere tax tax spend tax tax tax tax.

Trash the economy, make everyone poorer and put millions out of work. Winner!

Anyway you don't need to try to convince me. It's the other 45 million you need to worry about.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Let me make it short and simple..

Bit ironic that matey.

And let's not go around the John McDonnell "Look, I am a Marxist" loop again eh?