General Election - December 12th, 2019

[SWP's back]

We might lose the value of the £1.

Edited.

 

[blueparrot]

Do you not agree the country is full?
I applaud immigration but is has to be controlled?
Not a simple wave them in policy the Corbyn is advocating?
I'm sorry but I dont agree

The country isn’t full , parts are overcrowded mainly the south east other parts are crying out for people to fill jobs and supply services. Growing the economy and paying the taxes and staffing the services for an ageing population can only be filled by families having more children or immigration. As far as I know Corbyn is wanting to continue with some form of FOM of labour, in practice their will be little difference in immigration figures whoever wins the election, the tories just pretend different.
When my dad was in hospital last year the wards seemed full of mainly ‘British’ patients, while many of staff from cleaners to registrars were immigrants or children of immigrants, without which he wouldn’t have got the superb treatment he did.

 

[BobKowalski]

Need to factor in the better health provision in the UK, higher standards of treatment etc. But from those figures in isolation it seems like it's in our favour.

This will be huge news in the ‘Why don’t we get value for money from the NHS & Switzerland/Germany/wherever has a lot better and cheaper healthcare’ thread.

Good to see people talking the U.K. up for a change.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm not being short sighted and I have some friends who work in the NHS and I admire the work and hours you do. Most people jump to conclusions that leavers are all bigots when there not.
My issue is not with people coming here and working hard and the NHS is an area I agree we need them. Many looked after my dad in Salford last year before he died.

My issue is more people who come here with no job or prospects and "use" our system to gain more or less free healthcare without ever paying into the system. This has to stop and I totally back the conservatives.
And yes most people now work for less.
I have put countless hours unpaid for 30 years, if I didn't I'd lose my job.
It's not just the NHS mate.

That just isn’t happening. We have the controls to get rid of EU citizens that aren’t contributing, the government doesn’t use it because it isn’t an issue.

EU citizens contribute more on average than UK citizens.

You are right that our infrastructure is under immense pressure and the country is crowded but on the flip side we need more people to work in this country.

We’re in a damned if we do, damned if we don’t as their are huge skills gaps in healthcare and technology. For example we are absolutely crying out for Cyber Security professionals to fill the huge gaps for our leading businesses. We’re better if we don’t shut our doors.

I’m against Johnson’s blanket points based system idea. We should be actively bringing in nurses, doctors, IT professionals and other groups where we are short. We need to be specific on the skills we are importing.

 

[west didsblue]

I'm not being short sighted and I have some friends who work in the NHS and I admire the work and hours you do. Most people jump to conclusions that leavers are all bigots when there not.
My issue is not with people coming here and working hard and the NHS is an area I agree we need them. Many looked after my dad in Salford last year before he died.

My issue is more people who come here with no job or prospects and "use" our system to gain more or less free healthcare without ever paying into the system. This has to stop and I totally back the conservatives.
And yes most people now work for less.
I have put countless hours unpaid for 30 years, if I didn't I'd lose my job.
It's not just the NHS mate.

Sorry mate that’s rubbish.
No-one likes to see people coming here and take the piss but the problem is nowhere near as big as some people like to make out, and it’s not a one way problem. Not sure how accurate this link is but I have no reason to think it’s wrong.
http://www.humantruth.info/UK_health_tourism.html

 

[BLUEMATT23]

Sorry mate that’s rubbish.
No-one likes to see people coming here and take the piss but the problem is nowhere near as big as some people like to make out, and it’s not a one way problem. Not sure how accurate this link is but I have no reason to think it’s wrong.
http://www.humantruth.info/UK_health_tourism.html

Your entitled to your opinion and I respect it
Too be honest we can debate until the cows come home.
Personally I hate this country with a passion and I firmly believe that the ordinary tax payer is treated with complete disdain.
Anything that's done now is too late.
I wont be casting a vote in a few weeks it will end up in the bin.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

It isn’t an opinion.
Its a link to carefully researched analysis against your anecdotal rant.
But of course you leavers have no time for experts do you?
And if you don’t vote, don’t ever post a political view on here again.

 

[blueparrot]

Your entitled to your opinion and I respect it
Too be honest we can debate until the cows come home.
Personally I hate this country with a passion and I firmly believe that the ordinary tax payer is treated with complete disdain.
Anything that's done now is too late.
I wont be casting a vote in a few weeks it will end up in the bin.

If you hate this country so much which countries do you admire and see as beacons , out of interest?

 

[Fame Monster]

So from your figures there’s 2.3M EU citizens working in the UK including their dependents and just 1M UK citizens in the EU. Therefore assuming tax rates are broadly comparable there’s 2.3 times as much tax being paid by EU citizens to the UK exchequer than by UK citizens to EU countries. Not having reciprocal health care arrangements would be churlish and would call into question other areas where there is reciprocity, and the bottom line is that the both UK and EU citizens effectively pay for their health care in their host countries through taxation.

I'm not arguing that these EU citizens don't pay their tax or that as a whole, they're not beneficial to Britain.

I'm asking whether we have true reciprocity in terms of healthcare and whether when/if we leave the EU, restricting/charging more to immigrants for healthcare would be beneficial to the country in financial terms.

And given that we provide healthcare to 2.4Million EU citizens for which we billed other EU countries £49 Million, yet the NHS was billed £674 million in 2015 for 1.2 million citizens https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/, in spite of the demographic differences, I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether - on that issue alone - we are being ripped off.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'm not arguing that these EU citizens don't pay their tax or that as a whole, they're not beneficial to Britain.

I'm asking whether we have true reciprocity in terms of healthcare and whether when/if we leave the EU, restricting/charging more to immigrants for healthcare would be beneficial to the country in financial terms.

And given that we provide healthcare to 2.4Million EU citizens for which we billed other EU countries £49 Million, yet the NHS was billed £674 million in 2015 for 1.2 million citizens https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/, in spite of the demographic differences, I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether - on that issue alone - we are being ripped off.

Yeah. Again demographics. By your own estimates there are what 250,000 senior citizens retired abroad? And how does another country looking after our citizens morph into us getting ‘ripped off’? What do you suggest? That they don’t get treatment?

And how is charging an EU national, invited to work here, a £500 annual surcharge on top of taxes and NI that they are already paying going to help British nationals abroad? Or a British senior on a fixed income living in Spain for that matter?

 

[hilts]

So from your figures there’s 2.3M EU citizens working in the UK including their dependents and just 1M UK citizens in the EU. Therefore assuming tax rates are broadly comparable there’s 2.3 times as much tax being paid by EU citizens to the UK exchequer than by UK citizens to EU countries. Not having reciprocal health care arrangements would be churlish and would call into question other areas where there is reciprocity, and the bottom line is that the both UK and EU citizens effectively pay for their health care in their host countries through taxation.

Simplistic nonsense

 

[blueparrot]

I'm not arguing that these EU citizens don't pay their tax or that as a whole, they're not beneficial to Britain.

I'm asking whether we have true reciprocity in terms of healthcare and whether when/if we leave the EU, restricting/charging more to immigrants for healthcare would be beneficial to the country in financial terms.

And given that we provide healthcare to 2.4Million EU citizens for which we billed other EU countries £49 Million, yet the NHS was billed £674 million in 2015 for 1.2 million citizens https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/, in spite of the demographic differences, I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether - on that issue alone - we are being ripped off.

Is it not because most eu citizens here are of working age and don’t use the NHS that much, where a lot of the 1,2 million living in the EU have retired there and are more of a burden on their health care ? Just guessing off the top of my head.

 

[west didsblue]

Simplistic nonsense

Your response certainly is.

 

[Fame Monster]

Yeah. Again demographics. By your own estimates there are what 250,000 senior citizens retired abroad? And how does another country looking after our citizens morph into us getting ‘ripped off’? What do you suggest? That they don’t get treatment?

And how is charging an EU national, invited to work here, a £500 annual surcharge on top of taxes and NI that they are already paying going to help British nationals abroad? Or a British senior on a fixed income living in Spain for that matter?

It's not just demographics though. There's roughly about 150,000 more UK pensioners living in the EU than the reverse. So in the UK, treating a 65 year old costs double the treatment of a 30 year old. That still doesn't come anywhere close to explaining the difference in cost given that there are 1.2 more EU citizens in the UK than the reverse. Even if all of our retirees were 85 (which obviously isn't the case) where they cost 7 times what a 30 year would cost to treat, we still seem to be getting a very bad deal in terms of cost. Obviously, it's partly a problem of our own making because we seem to be poor at recovering costs so introducing a different system might be the best way of bringing about true reciprocity because what we have now isn't even close.

 

[Vic]

Good, at least its fucking start.

Tell them that at A and E next time a nurse from the EU takes a blood sample. Missing the vein can be a beggar.

 

[west didsblue]

It's not just demographics though. There's roughly about 150,000 more UK pensioners living in the EU than the reverse. So in the UK, treating a 65 year old costs double the treatment of a 30 year old. That still doesn't come anywhere close to explaining the difference in cost given that there are 1.2 more EU citizens in the UK than the reverse. Even if all of our retirees were 85 (which obviously isn't the case) where they cost 7 times what a 30 year would cost to treat, we still seem to be getting a very bad deal in terms of cost. Obviously, it's partly a problem of our own making because we seem to be poor at recovering costs so introducing a different system might be the best way of bringing about true reciprocity because what we have now isn't even close.

Even if I agreed with every point you make, I don’t see any policies from any of the political parties that would address it, and The Brexit WA doesn’t appear to either.

 

[BobKowalski]

It's not just demographics though. There's roughly about 150,000 more UK pensioners living in the EU than the reverse. So in the UK, treating a 65 year old costs double the treatment of a 30 year old. That still doesn't come anywhere close to explaining the difference in cost given that there are 1.2 more EU citizens in the UK than the reverse. Even if all of our retirees were 85 (which obviously isn't the case) where they cost 7 times what a 30 year would cost to treat, we still seem to be getting a very bad deal in terms of cost. Obviously, it's partly a problem of our own making because we seem to be poor at recovering costs so introducing a different system might be the best way of bringing about true reciprocity because what we have now isn't even close.

A valid point and no issue with improving the system for ensuring full reimbursement from the respective Govts of EU citizens treated by the NHS. No one is arguing with collecting funds to which we are entitled to.

Getting our own house in order would seem to be the first and most logical starting point. Not that I have any expectation that this will happen. Yet we are going to work out, build and implement a working system for the new Brexit dual customs protocols in NI in eleven months. But collecting the money owed for removing Madam Froufou’s bunion? Not a fucking chance.

2020 is going to be a hoot.

 

[Bigga]

I'm not arguing that these EU citizens don't pay their tax or that as a whole, they're not beneficial to Britain.

I'm asking whether we have true reciprocity in terms of healthcare and whether when/if we leave the EU, restricting/charging more to immigrants for healthcare would be beneficial to the country in financial terms.

And given that we provide healthcare to 2.4Million EU citizens for which we billed other EU countries £49 Million, yet the NHS was billed £674 million in 2015 for 1.2 million citizens https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/, in spite of the demographic differences, I think it's a legitimate question to ask whether - on that issue alone - we are being ripped off.

Man, you REALLY need to understand how much the NHS is a cash cow.

Do you know that fixing a door on a cupboard has to go to Sodexo or whomever they outsource to??

I would not be allowed to fix that door because I would liable for how that door ends up (as in if it became undone and hurt someone).

If you were at home and were incapable of repairs, a joiner may charge you around £40 - £80 (being generous).

Do you know how much that costs for NHS?? In the region of £400!!

Detoxing a room where somebody passed costs in the region of £2000 - £6000!! Imagine how people can pass on any given day in a hospital!

We are not allowed to hire secretaries, where I am, because it costs "too much money", but they'll outsource this work abroad!

Privatisation at its absolute worst! This government doesn't WANT things to work in the NHS, where people actually want to serve.

I could go on about seeing nurses going off sick with illness, slowing down the process of the Waiting List because the Gov don't give a sh*t, about people only about the stats.

They are strangling the NHS on purpose.

It's an absolute disgrace!

 

[Coatigan]

Is it normal practice for countries to offer free education and healthcare to foreign nationals?

A) that is not the case. foreign, both EU and non-eu pay for both. in quite different ways. It is just that the majority of brits are so incredibly ignorant not to know this nor do they want to. Makes their anger more justifiable.

B). yes, absolutely normal.

 

[Bigga]

Good, at least its fucking start.

Ha! I missed this earlier!!

Let me tell you that the NHS is not buggered because 'too many foreigners' are using the NHS!! That's lie they spin when they need to explain why the NHS is doing poorly! The migrants that come here have to pay their tax and NI as @BobKowalski has correctly said.

If that's not what you mean, then ALL EU countries suffer from 'health tourism' and we're not different.

Once we know that is happening, we take all identification details and speak to the person's Gov. Most people do NOT get away with scamming the NHS.

See? You have to know the subject, not listen to reasons your Gov decides to spin you!

It's the open and shameless robbing of the NHS that this Gov has allowed, instead of training inhouse staff to do the majority of things outside of specialities.