And nothing to do with people who think we need to be willing to leave with no deal as a negotiating stance (and presumably are now pretending it was the threat of no deal that made the EU agree to a deal they'd offered before without the threat).Hindsight is indeed 20/20
And it clearly shows how self-serving Corbyn was
Any hard Brexit outcome will be largely on him
People are allowed to change their minds on a subject. That doesn’t make them hypocritical on that point, or more widely. What does it say about someone that they are incapable of adapting their views over time based on experience and reflection?Good grief. You said "If we have voted to leave the EU, then leave we must and if it's economically damaging then we will have to accept that and deal with it" and thus you "moved on". It took you three years to accept it and move on and you now want to make some moral argument out of your latterday conversion. Welcome to Johnsonworld.
Yep, funny how the blame for anything that can possibly go wrong cannot be attributed to those that have actually led us to that situation. Corbyn was clearly ineffectual in changing the course of anything but the blame for where we are and where we’re going can only be attributed to those in power and those who voted for them. Odd how they’re getting their excuses in now; it’s almost like they’ve realised there’s a good chance it’s going to be a shambles. One thing’s for sure, not one of them will take ownership if it’s a complete fuck up.And nothing to do with people who think we need to be willing to leave with no deal as a negotiating stance (and presumably are now pretending it was the threat of no deal that made the EU agree to a deal they'd offered before without the threat).
I'm really not sure whether it's the revisionism or the hypocrisy (or just the triumphalism or the carelessness about the damage) but the thread is not exactly demonstrating where the healing begins (but then that's a slogan with no basis in reality).
A significant amount of blame has to rest with those who arrogantly thought that the British electorate were ever going to elect Corbyn as Prime Minister with a working majority. This was clearly never going to happen. The consequences that flow from that profound and foolish misapprehension must rest, to some extent, with those that harboured and acted upon it, as if they had applied logic, and compromised, the outcome, and the politics of the next five years, would be very different.Yep, funny how the blame for anything that can possibly go wrong cannot be attributed to those that have actually led us to that situation. Corbyn was clearly ineffectual in changing the course of anything but the blame for where we are and where we’re going can only be attributed to those in power and those who voted for them. Odd how they’re getting their excuses in now; it’s almost like they’ve realised there’s a good chance it’s going to be a shambles. One thing’s for sure, not one of them will take ownership if it’s a complete fuck up.
Yes, amazing how for some corbyn is more to blame than Cameron, may and Boris. Orwell called this doublethink.Yep, funny how the blame for anything that can possibly go wrong cannot be attributed to those that have actually led us to that situation. Corbyn was clearly ineffectual in changing the course of anything but the blame for where we are and where we’re going can only be attributed to those in power and those who voted for them. Odd how they’re getting their excuses in now; it’s almost like they’ve realised there’s a good chance it’s going to be a shambles. One thing’s for sure, not one of them will take ownership if it’s a complete fuck up.
Yes, amazing how for some corbyn is more to blame than Cameron, may and Boris. Orwell called this doublethink.
I think you need to read a post on the last page.The people blaming Corbyn are Remainers who wanted Brexit to be prevented. Leavers such as myself are happy to sincerely thank Jezza for his contribution to a huge Leave Parliamentary majority.
I think you need to read a post on the last page.
I blame Corbyn for being a useless twat stuck in the 1970s but I blame Johnson and Cameron for any negative consequences of Brexit should they happen (which I believe are almost inevitable).
It depends what he’s being blamed for.Two entirely separate issues.
The first is that Corbyn's 'best of both worlds' Leave / Remain hotch potch was always a non-runner with either side of the argument and so he has been a major contributor to the huge Leave majority.
What your personal view of how well or not the UK will do outside the EU is merely opinion.....in my opinion :)
It depends what he’s being blamed for.
This discussion started with Corbyn being blamed for any hard Brexit that might happen, which is clearly nonsense and a case of getting excuses in early.
On the other hand, if you’re happy with a hard Brexit should it happen, then the only politician you can thank for it is Johnson.
The hypocrisy is if someone says "If we have voted to leave the EU, then leave we must and if it's economically damaging then we will have to accept that and deal with it" - someone who didn't accept it until three years later.People are allowed to change their minds on a subject. That doesn’t make them hypocritical on that point, or more widely. What does it say about someone that they are incapable of adapting their views over time based on experience and reflection?
And on the particular point you’ve quoted I believe he’s absolutely correct.
A significant amount of blame has to rest with those who arrogantly thought that the British electorate were ever going to elect Corbyn as Prime Minister with a working majority. This was clearly never going to happen. The consequences that flow from that profound and foolish misapprehension must rest, to some extent, with those that harboured and acted upon it, as if they had applied logic, and compromised, the outcome, and the politics of the next five years, would be very different.
I don’t think it’s fair to blame Corbyn for following his ambitions and beliefs, however.
Whatever your definition how can you blame (or thank) anyone but the Prime Minister who will ultimately deliver it? We don’t yet know what it will look like at the end of transition and Corbyn is already an irrelevance.That also depends on how you define a 'hard' Brexit, surely? One mans (or womans) hard is someone else's flaccid...
Whatever your definition how can you blame (or thank) anyone but the Prime Minister who will ultimately deliver it? We don’t yet know what it will look like at the end of transition and Corbyn is already an irrelevance.
I think we’re finally in agreement.I agree that how Brexit finally pans out after the transition period ends and how the UK economy performs over the next five years are entirely the responsibility of the government. With a huge majority, Johnson can choose entirely what courses of actions he wants and we will see how things turn out.
You can, however, blame or thank Corbyn for his contribution to how we have reached this point.
Because it wasn’t clear to them. This is because people on the hard left usually suffer from a complete absence of political empathy that borders on the sociopathic; assuming their views are the only ones with any legitimacy and conspicuously failing to appreciate how anyone can hold different views. This is manifestly arrogant. This is also a form of mental disorder that has twice translated into electing leaders (Foot, Corbyn) who enable right-wing governments. This mental disorder is accentuated by the echo-chamber that they inhabit, interacting as they frequently do, pretty much exclusively with others who share their Weltanschauung.If it was clearly never going to happen, why was it arrogant to ask people to vote for it? .
That sounds like someone who has changed their minds to me.The hypocrisy is if someone says "If we have voted to leave the EU, then leave we must and if it's economically damaging then we will have to accept that and deal with it" - someone who didn't accept it until three years later.
Sorry mate, I'm not clear who you are apportioning blame to. Not Corbyn, from what you say. Those that supported him within Labour? They must have believed in him surely. The Labour MP's?A significant amount of blame has to rest with those who arrogantly thought that the British electorate were ever going to elect Corbyn as Prime Minister with a working majority. This was clearly never going to happen. The consequences that flow from that profound and foolish misapprehension must rest, to some extent, with those that harboured and acted upon it, as if they had applied logic, and compromised, the outcome, and the politics of the next five years, would be very different.
I don’t think it’s fair to blame Corbyn for following his ambitions and beliefs, however.
That also depends on how you define a 'hard' Brexit, surely? One mans (or womans) hard is someone else's flaccid...
I'm sorry but you've drawn a flawed conclusion there. I'm not making any moral judgement, merely a practical suggestion. The Tories have won and Brexit is happening. It's now completely pointless people banging on about this injustice or that, this insanity it that.Good grief. You said "If we have voted to leave the EU, then leave we must and if it's economically damaging then we will have to accept that and deal with it" and thus you "moved on". It took you three years to accept it and move on and you now want to make some moral argument out of your latterday conversion. Welcome to Johnsonworld.