Another new Brexit thread

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west didsblue said:
It's just your opinion that we would have been part of federal state. As it stands and if the government are lying like we both think they are, we will simply end up being a rule taker from that entity whatever it ends up being. If you're happy with that, fine, but there's no need to pretend that we'll have some new found independence and sovereignty.
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Thats the thing most Leavers don't get because they can't look beyond slogans like "get Brexit done". The reality will be that we have to do what we are told with just about anyone we want to trade with to enable that trade to happen. This will take years to resolve and the country will be poorer as a result of restricted trade as a result of the time it takes to negotiate those deals and the right wing cabal that duped them all will have finally got to sell off the BBC, privatise the NHS, collapse UK workers rights and make the country a tax haven for the rich... still they will have their blue passports so it will all be worth it.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Thats the thing most Leavers don't get because they can't look beyond slogans like "get Brexit done". The reality will be that we have to do what we are told with just about anyone we want to trade with to enable that trade to happen. This will take years to resolve and the country will be poorer as a result of restricted trade as a result of the time it takes to negotiate those deals and the right wing cabal that duped them all will have finally got to sell off the BBC, privatise the NHS, collapse UK workers rights and make the country a tax haven for the rich... still they will have their blue passports so it will all be worth it.
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Don't forget we are still in the apocalyptic recession caused by not joining the euro, and of course the consequences of the emergency budget in June 2016. Maybe your gloomy predictions will be right this time - even a stopped clock etc. ...
 
blueinsa said:
I find it impossible to believe that anyone would argue the EU wasn't on the road to being a united superstate when it has its own parliament, anthem, defence policies etc etc.

Its a trading bloc!

Had it focused on that my guess is remain would have wont by an absolute landslide if we had even demanded we be asked yet it couldn't, it had to go along with the dreams of the federalist ruling elite that controls its halls of power.
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They can't admit any of this as that would be like admitting the Brexiteers might have a valid point.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Don't forget we are still in the apocalyptic recession caused by not joining the euro, and of course the consequences of the emergency budget in June 2016. Maybe your gloomy predictions will be right this time - even a stopped clock etc. ...
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we will end up being dictated to by "partners" from all around the world if we want to trade with them as a single nation. End of. Get used to it.
 
[URL='https://twitter.com/JamesW1906']James@JamesW1906
[/URL]
Replying to
@theipaper
The idea that we were going to be able to negotiate better trade deals than the EU was always a fantasy. Sadly the special power of nationalism is getting people to believe nonsense if it’s labelled as patriotic

Replying to
@theipaper
Let's take a moment to remember that we already have a deal with Japan. The EU-Japan Economic Partnership Agreement was officially signed on 17th July 2018, becoming the world's largest bilateral free trade deal, creating an open trade zone covering nearly one-third of global GDP

Replying to
@theipaper
Don't forget the mantra, 'we hold all the cards'. It always was rubbish. Are people now going to realise we are very weak looking for deals on the world stage?

Replying to
@theipaper
I'm resigned to the schadenfreude of watching one of the most unproductive nations in earth deluding itself into thinking it can compete on the world stage. Fucking leavers.
 
bluethrunthru said:
we will end up being dictated to by "partners" from all around the world if we want to trade with them as a single nation. End of. Get used to it.
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Tbh that's something I got my head around a long time ago. Globalisation is not going away just because we are leaving the EU, and I'm not sure why you are seeking to conflate these two separate issues.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Tbh that's something I got my head around a long time ago. Globalisation is not going away just because we are leaving the EU, and I'm not sure why you are seeking to conflate these two separate issues.
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Just pointing out the maaahhhoooosssiiiivvveee lies told by Leave to the gullible
 
bluethrunthru said:
Just pointing out the maaahhhoooosssiiiivvveee lies told by Leave to the gullible
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Tbh you seem to have swallowed them whole. Both leave and remain decided to campaign on the basis of whoppers. No point crying about it now. Maybe it's time Remainers got upset with remain campaigners rather than Leave voters? It was those pricks that decided to run a fear/smear campaign and turned out to have misjudged the electorate.
 
joe123 said:
Because in a globalised world we'd have a stronger hand in the EU than out of it?
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In a "globalised" world the concept of the "EU" would cease to be relevant.

Or is that another "Europe vs the World" argument?
 
What should be becoming clear to any Leaver is the whoppers that they bought.

As part of the EU trading with the EU and now in a deal with Japan we had unfettered access to nearly one third of the worlds GDP. Now we don't We won't either because the EU 27 cannot give us any breaks, any deal that betters the one they have between themselves. Thats their treaty so as a result despite what was claimed in the referendum we will not have the same or better trading arrangements with the EU. The EU-Japan deal is written in a way that neither can offer anything better than they have agreed with any third party country - so we aren't doing a deal thats better than the EU's with Japan - nor any time soon despite what Johnson says.

The sooner Leave stops wrapping themselves in the Union flag and claiming anyone not toe-ing their line is not being patriotic and instead understood the difficulties facing us the better - it may well be some of them get a little bitter when they realise things are not going to be what they thought but sometimes the truth hurts.
 
bluethrunthru said:
What should be becoming clear to any Leaver is the whoppers that they bought.

As part of the EU trading with the EU and now in a deal with Japan we had unfettered access to nearly one third of the worlds GDP. Now we don't We won't either because the EU 27 cannot give us any breaks, any deal that betters the one they have between themselves. Thats their treaty so as a result despite what was claimed in the referendum we will not have the same or better trading arrangements with the EU. The EU-Japan deal is written in a way that neither can offer anything better than they have agreed with any third party country - so we aren't doing a deal thats better than the EU's with Japan - nor any time soon despite what Johnson says.

The sooner Leave stops wrapping themselves in the Union flag and claiming anyone not toe-ing their line is not being patriotic and instead understood the difficulties facing us the better - it may well be some of them get a little bitter when they realise things are not going to be what they thought but sometimes the truth hurts.
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You think that the UK, which was part of the trade discussions with Japan as part of the EU, would be incapable of doing the same thing again as an independent nation? Except this time without any hold ups in regards to FOM terms.

Or do you honestly believe it was the EU getting the UK a trade deal with Japan, entirely on our behalf with 0 input from the UK whatsoever.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
You think that the UK, which was part of the trade discussions with Japan as part of the EU, would be incapable of doing the same thing again as an independent nation? Except this time without any hold ups in regards to FOM terms.

Or do you honestly believe it was the EU getting the UK a trade deal with Japan on our behalf.
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I think that despite what Johnson says we will not get a better deal than the one the EU has ( we simply cannot its a lie ) - despite what Johnson says it won't be swift ( Japan holding out to see what we do with the EU because they will have to mirror that at best - truth being it gives them the advantage ) and from the point in time that we leave the EU until we agree a deal that puts Japanese investment in the UK - NISSAN, Toyota, Hitachi trains - to name but a few who are already in trouble - under threat which means we come to the table with Japan looking desperate.

No - it was the EU getting a trade deal with Japan for the EU - the EU had long since stopped considering us as we had signalled we were leaving. Thought you'd have realised that.
 
bluethrunthru said:
What should be becoming clear to any Leaver is the whoppers that they bought.

As part of the EU trading with the EU and now in a deal with Japan we had unfettered access to nearly one third of the worlds GDP. Now we don't We won't either because the EU 27 cannot give us any breaks, any deal that betters the one they have between themselves. Thats their treaty so as a result despite what was claimed in the referendum we will not have the same or better trading arrangements with the EU. The EU-Japan deal is written in a way that neither can offer anything better than they have agreed with any third party country - so we aren't doing a deal thats better than the EU's with Japan - nor any time soon despite what Johnson says.

The sooner Leave stops wrapping themselves in the Union flag and claiming anyone not toe-ing their line is not being patriotic and instead understood the difficulties facing us the better - it may well be some of them get a little bitter when they realise things are not going to be what they thought but sometimes the truth hurts.
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I think you are assuming that Leavers made their choice based upon the things that are important to you? I'm not sure this is the case.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I think that despite what Johnson says we will not get a better deal than the one the EU has ( we simply cannot its a lie ) - despite what Johnson says it won't be swift ( Japan holding out to see what we do with the EU because they will have to mirror that at best - truth being it gives them the advantage ) and from the point in time that we leave the EU until we agree a deal that puts Japanese investment in the UK - NISSAN, Toyota, Hitachi trains - to name but a few who are already in trouble - under threat which means we come to the table with Japan looking desperate.

No - it was the EU getting a trade deal with Japan for the EU - the EU had long since stopped considering us as we had signalled we were leaving. Thought you'd have realised that.
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That all depends on your determination of "better". Can we get a trade deal with Japan/other nations that makes items more affordable and benefits our economies? Yes.

So where's the problem for you?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
You think that the UK, which was part of the trade discussions with Japan as part of the EU, would be incapable of doing the same thing again as an independent nation? Except this time without any hold ups in regards to FOM terms.

Or do you honestly believe it was the EU getting the UK a trade deal with Japan, entirely on our behalf with 0 input from the UK whatsoever.
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Not zero input from the UK no, nor was it anywhere near 100% input from the UK , so no we won't get the same deal as the EU, and we certainly won't get better because Japan can't under the terms of it's EU deal.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I think you are assuming that Leavers made their choice based upon the things that are important to you? I'm not sure this is the case.
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He keeps fighting the economic argument, which most leavers have already accepted there is work to be done. but not one that is impossible to overcome and have accepted it will take time but the benefits of leaving outweigh our intentions of voting the way we did as we voted for another purpose.

He's completely ignored the other arguments about the politisation of Europe, federalisation of Europe, authoritarianism of Europe as he dismisses them as pure fantasy and nonsense.
This is why he will never understand or accept the leave decision.
 
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