COVID-19 — Coronavirus

[bluethrunthru]

he was persistently arguing his point , just because you disagree doesn’t make him a WUM

were it just me that thought that you may have a point however a number of posters have said and done the same in the last few days due to the content, aggression and provocation within replies.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Probabaly an improvement on the place

How nice - however it would make some people question their alcohol ( or similar ) consumption at first. Open the curtains in the morning and ...baaaaaa Billy is eating yer hedge !

 

[Vic]

No mate, you’re just totally not getting it are you.

Let me spell it out for you in capitals, please concentrate, this is the last time:

THEY RELEASED INFORMATION IN DECEMBER THAT THE VIRUS EXISTED BUT COVERED UP THAT IT WAS TRANSMISSIBLE BETWEEN HUMANS UNTIL THE 3RD WEEK OF JANUARY.

Is that understood now?

Good.

Taiwan said early January it was transmissible and shut transport from areas of China. The WHO ignored them.

Citation needed. For all or any of that.

 

[meltonblue]

First of all I’m inside all day every day, who I post about on here makes zero difference in the outside world and the response to this disease. All we’re doing is chatting about it. So playing the blame game or not makes little difference. I’d hope we’re all obeying the advice and rules and that’s all we can do.

The pushback is purely down to an anti-western, pro-east approach some of the modern left has nailed its flag to. The same poster I’m arguing with who’s refusing to even acknowledge any wrong doing of the country in which this spread from, is running up records for anti-UK government posts.

Back to the actual topic. Taiwan obviously knew it was transmissible of H2H as they stopped travel from China and considering their location, they’ve had the greatest response to this out of everyone.

They knew very early the dangers and yet it escaped the Chinese Government and WHO? Not a chance mate, not a chance.

Japan are arguing the WHO and China are allies and involved together. I’m absolutely certain China lied, I’m reasonably confident the WHO protected them.

China did enforce a lockdown after the first published death, again I’m not having their figures, but this was already far too late and was spread to thousands of people. They enforced the lockdown when they had no choice as they’d lost control.

It’s important to tell the truth with your figures and nobody, not even their own poor citizens, believe a word they’re saying. Other countries may have thought they’d beat it and have copied their strategy, that’s how important it is.

The UK government does deserve criticism, the PPE, testing and the fact people were walking through our airports without any further regulations was a disgrace.

But they’re not even half as culpable as China is.

To be fair Taiwan would have shut down if this had turned out to be more akin to SARS too though. I’m not sure them and their relationship with China is an indicator to use really.

The pushback isn’t purely down to that, you could argue that’s just as politically biased a statement as those you’re accusing of doing it. I’m not particularly left wing but it’s blindingly obvious the tactics both Cummings and the Conservatives and also the Republicans are using, it’s the standard playbook. Just this week you had faulty test kits and masks stories blaming China as a whole when it had nothing to do with their government at all and it was actually governments buying off unlicensed manufacturers on the cheap. You also had Gove intimating we didn’t ramp up testing because of China too despite them going into complete lockdown over two months ago now. Both of those created posts on here blaming China, showing that perception is landing despite the reality being different.

That doesn’t detract from the blame China should have (or more importantly to me the WHO, although in their defence they have at least been banging the testing mantra drum for weeks now). Likewise it doesn’t detract from the blame some governments should have either. Misinformation is going to be rife right now (as it has been for a while now, this pandemic is no different). All of it needs to be taken with a caveat and multiple sources to work out the truth and ultimately even then we still don’t really know. As I said though, ultimately it’s how we react in the present that matters

 

[Vic]

But my argument is against the Chinese state, because if Taiwan knew, so did they and yet they’re still lying about their deaths.

What did Taiwan know, and when did they know it?

Any reply other than evidence is clearly wumming.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Why should I let it go?

The government of the 2nd most powerful country on earth is covering up epidemics and tens of thousands of deaths. How can you let it go?

I’m certainly not going to when people are acting as apologists for them.

What a waste if your time, and everyone else's. I'm more right wing than you are mate, and no apologist for regimes like that in China.

But right now I really could not give one nano toss of all this he said she said bollocks. Sorry but it's a total yawn.

I mean so what if you win your argument? Who the fuck cares?

We have a whale of a bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[Ban-jani]

Sorry about the quote, now corrected.

All that, and you still haven't answered the question. What did Taiwan know, and when did they know it?

I was hoping for more than "citation needed" tweets.

Let me take your unsubstantiated claims.

They knew what was going on. What did they know was going on? They knew there was an outbreak of pneumonia in Wuhan, and started quarantine procedures on flights from 31st December, and within a week had tested 1,317 passengers and crew - 10 individuals displayed symptoms. One was sent to the hospital for medical attention and the other nine individuals had recovered.

They closed travel from the Hubei province before the WHO announced there was human to human contact. They stated that was happening on December 31st and were ignored and silenced by China’s power. Other than tweets, what's the source for that latter claim? WHO knew by 21 January there was human-to-human transmission. They had their first confirmed case (a Taiwanese woman who worked in Wuhan), and a leading infectious disease expert in China strongly advised travelers against visiting Wuhan. Taiwan did not close travel; they reminded the public to avoid all non-essential travels to Wuhan. This was five days after Taiwan had sent two medical experts to Wuhan to find out more about the outbreak and control measures; they'd visited the local hospital to learn more about treatment and infection control measures. On 25 January they advised people to avoid non-essential trips to all of Hubei; they banned Chinese travellers from Hubei on 25 January.

The WHO don’t allow them to join their organisation and instead take China’s view that they’re not independent. Well that's true; Taiwan isn't a member of the UN either. The idea that WHO was therefore suppressing information from Taiwan is unsubstantiated.

"They didn't let us see what they didn't want us to see, but our experts sensed the situation was not optimistic," Kolas Yotaka, a Taiwanese government representative, told NBC News.

This was before it was published as H2H transmissible. They went to the WHO with this but hit a brick wall, due to not being members.

I was wrong to insinuate they closed travel completely but as Switzerland did to Austria, they cancelled some travel and they quarantined and tested anyone coming from China from the beginning of January.

Again, with all this information, do you think it’s possible China didn’t know it was H2H transmissible?

The Tweets contain links for their sources.

 

[Ban-jani]

Citation needed. For all or any of that.

It’s all in our conversation.

Read it.

 

[The perfect fumble]

How nice - however it would make some people question their alcohol ( or similar ) consumption at first. Open the curtains in the morning and ...baaaaaa Billy is eating yer hedge !

My wife knows the area, I gather it's a fairly common sight in Llandudnoto see these goats wander in for a midnight chomp, but with people isolating and so few cars about they're wandering in by day.

 

[Ban-jani]

To be fair Taiwan would have shut down if this had turned out to be more akin to SARS too though. I’m not sure them and their relationship with China is an indicator to use really.

The pushback isn’t purely down to that, you could argue that’s just as politically biased a statement as those you’re accusing of doing it. I’m not particularly left wing but it’s blindingly obvious the tactics both Cummings and the Conservatives and also the Republicans are using, it’s the standard playbook. Just this week you had faulty test kits and masks stories blaming China as a whole when it had nothing to do with their government at all and it was actually governments buying off unlicensed manufacturers on the cheap. You also had Gove intimating we didn’t ramp up testing because of China too despite them going into complete lockdown over two months ago now. Both of those created posts on here blaming China, showing that perception is landing despite the reality being different.

That doesn’t detract from the blame China should have (or more importantly to me the WHO, although in their defence they have at least been banging the testing mantra drum for weeks now). Likewise it doesn’t detract from the blame some governments should have either. Misinformation is going to be rife right now (as it has been for a while now, this pandemic is no different). All of it needs to be taken with a caveat and multiple sources to work out the truth and ultimately even then we still don’t really know. As I said though, ultimately it’s how we react in the present that matters

It’s several European countries that are sending dodgy masks back, Spain and Holland have done recently.
I can’t respond to everyone and there’s a number of posts coming my way.

But just because the West are shifting blame for their own shortcomings, it doesn’t make what they’re saying false.

 

[Ban-jani]

What a waste if your time, and everyone else's. I'm more right wing than you are mate, and no apologist for regimes like that in China.

But right now I really could not give one nano toss of all this he said she said bollocks. Sorry but it's a total yawn.

I mean so what if you win your argument? Who the fuck cares?

We have a whale of a bigger fish to fry right now.

It’s not about being right wing, it’s about the truth and that’s all I care about.

I’ve been in my house in lockdown for two weeks, I’ve got plenty of time and I’m not responsible for strategy so whether I’m discussing the UK or China, it makes no difference and even if it did, it’s surely important not to let this happen again?

 

[meltonblue]

It’s several European countries that are sending dodgy masks back, Spain and Holland have done recently.
I can’t respond to everyone and there’s a number of posts coming my way.

But just because the West are shifting blame for their own shortcomings, it doesn’t make what they’re saying false.

Yes but it’s still nothing to do with the Chinese government on the masks. A lot of it is false or at best disingenuous, it doesn’t take much to find some of it out. It’s modern politics in general for you though. All sides of the political spectrum and all big countries do it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

My wife knows the area, I gather it's a fairly common sight in Llandudnoto see these goats wander in for a midnight chomp, but with people isolating and so few cars about they're wandering in by day.

still - quite pleasant - I wouldn't mind them keeping my hedge and lawns in check F.O.C.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Taiwan said they thought there was a high risk of it, not that it definitely was

On the cover up, the genome was shared the day the first patient died. That’s not exactly indicative of a cover up nor is it that long into a lifecycle of a new virus. As soon as China did confirm H2H transmission they went into lockdown three days later, far earlier in their cycle than a lot of subsequent countries have done.

They absolutely could have been more transparent at the beginning (although hindsight is a wonderful thing to an extent with that) and the shunning of Taiwan in general, although a separate point, is always a depressing story.

The reason you’ll get some defending China to an extent though is a pushback against the narrative being set in some western countries (ourselves and the States in particular) to pin even more blame on them to distract from their own failings and to also sow the first seeds in the next battle, which will be the economic one to come after this.

China aren’t accountable for the guidance that the WHO sets. It was them that said to continue with international travel post China’s lockdown and took so long to call a pandemic, both of which caused far more damage than how long it took for the confirmation of H2H transmission. It was some of the western governments that dragged their heels to react whilst not just Taiwan but South Korea and Singapore in particular got their act together.

Ultimately though, right now none of that matters. How we get through this and how we recover from it is down to ourselves as a society and our own government. So far they’ve done some things badly (only sorting out the testing of front line workers late last week as a prime example) and some things very well. The blame game right now means nothing apart from dealing with the present as that’s all that matters, the full post mortem needs to come a long way down the line yet.

You make some persuasive points, but your post conspicuously fails to address the root cause of this pandemic, namely China’s apparent absence of satisfactory, or even rudimentary hygiene standards within its livestock industry - and specifically its wet markets. This is a discernibly common occurrence within this debate, but it avoids discussion around the cause of the pandemic and a therefore a significant degree of responsibility thereto.

For me, the Chinese government’s wider response since the story broke has been ok. I think they’ve been reasonably collaborative with the outside world and covering up and massaging figures isn’t the exclusive preserve of the Chinese government, that's for sure. In any event, it should have been apparent to western governments what they were contending with some time ago, within the world we inhabit today,

This pandemic was entirely avoidable if adequate constraints were in place preventing, or at least significantly mitigating the risk of viruses jumping from species to species. It was avoidable principally because it has happened before and associated warnings were provided. The risk had been clearly identified and wholly inadequate steps were taken to tackle the threat. This is a government that has manifestly proved adept at setting rules and enforcing them rigorously in relation to other problems that have presented themselves, so they have no excuse for failing to act.

it seems to question this apparent lack of care and foresight, to raise this concern, as something that needs to be robustly tackled going forward, if we are to avoid repeating this again, leaves one open to accusations of latent racism from some quarters, which is simply absurd.

China, and much the rest of south east Asia needs to get a grip in this issue, and sharpish, and pointing this out is a perfectly reasonable and reasoned thing to do.

 

[TCIB]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-womens-day-spain-idUSKBN20V0ZJ

You would think having some of the worst numbers they would be more sensible than to have a march like that.

 

[meltonblue]

You make some persuasive points, but your post conspicuously fails to address the root cause of this pandemic, namely China’s apparent absence of satisfactory, or even rudimentary hygiene standards within its livestock industry - and specifically its wet markets. This is a discernibly common occurrence within this debate, but it avoids discussion around the cause of the pandemic and a therefore a significant degree of responsibility thereto.

For me, the Chinese governments wider response since the story broke has been ok. I think they’ve been reasonably collaborative with the outside world and covering up and massaging figures isn’t the exclusive preserve of the Chinese government, that's for sure. In any event, it should have been apparent to western governments what they were contending some time ago, within the world we inhabit today,

This pandemic was entirely avoidable if adequate constraints were in place preventing, or at least significantly mitigating the risk of viruses jumping from species to species. It was avoidable principally because it has happened before and associated warnings were provided. The risk had been clearly identified and wholly inadequate steps were taken to tackle the threat. This is a government that has manifestly proved adept at setting rules and enforcing them rigorously in relation to other problems that have presented themselves, so they have no excuses for failing to act.

it seems to question this apparent lack of care and foresight, to raise this concern, as something that needs to be robustly tackled if we are to avoid repeating this again, leaves one open to accusations of latent racism from some quarters, which is simply absurd.

China, and much the rest of south east Asia needs to get a grip in this issue, and sharpish, and pointing this out is a perfectly reasonable and reasoned thing to do.

That was mainly down to I thought the post I wrote was long enough anyway that had I also covered that no one would have read it! :)

I completely agree on all of that and I will never argue who deserves the blame for this starting. I do see the outbreak and then the subsequent transition into pandemic as different things though that should both be investigated and addressed fully.

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes but it’s still nothing to do with the Chinese government on the masks. A lot of it is false or at best disingenuous, it doesn’t take much to find some of it out. It’s modern politics in general for you though. All sides of the political spectrum and all big countries do it.

Is it not? Why were they involved in distributing them then as a token of good will? Skeptics online, not just the right by the way, are suggesting it’s a PR strategy that lacks substance.

 

[Ban-jani]

You make some persuasive points, but your post conspicuously fails to address the root cause of this pandemic, namely China’s apparent absence of satisfactory, or even rudimentary hygiene standards within its livestock industry - and specifically its wet markets. This is a discernibly common occurrence within this debate, but it avoids discussion around the cause of the pandemic and a therefore a significant degree of responsibility thereto.

For me, the Chinese government’s wider response since the story broke has been ok. I think they’ve been reasonably collaborative with the outside world and covering up and massaging figures isn’t the exclusive preserve of the Chinese government, that's for sure. In any event, it should have been apparent to western governments what they were contending with some time ago, within the world we inhabit today,

This pandemic was entirely avoidable if adequate constraints were in place preventing, or at least significantly mitigating the risk of viruses jumping from species to species. It was avoidable principally because it has happened before and associated warnings were provided. The risk had been clearly identified and wholly inadequate steps were taken to tackle the threat. This is a government that has manifestly proved adept at setting rules and enforcing them rigorously in relation to other problems that have presented themselves, so they have no excuse for failing to act.

it seems to question this apparent lack of care and foresight, to raise this concern, as something that needs to be robustly tackled going forward, if we are to avoid repeating this again, leaves one open to accusations of latent racism from some quarters, which is simply absurd.

China, and much the rest of south east Asia needs to get a grip in this issue, and sharpish, and pointing this out is a perfectly reasonable and reasoned thing to do.

Very good post and articulated well.

I would just disagree on the massaging figures point, it’s been leaked that No.10 think they’re true deaths are 50,000+, someone said as many as 15 times what they’ve published.

If true, or even slightly near to the truth, that not only means they’re totally hiding the truth, it means there’s tens of thousands of people having the indignity of having their death/reason of death, manipulated and hidden.

 

[Shaelumstash]

You make some persuasive points, but your post conspicuously fails to address the root cause of this pandemic, namely China’s apparent absence of satisfactory, or even rudimentary hygiene standards within its livestock industry - and specifically its wet markets. This is a discernibly common occurrence within this debate, but it avoids discussion around the cause of the pandemic and a therefore a significant degree of responsibility thereto.

For me, the Chinese government’s wider response since the story broke has been ok. I think they’ve been reasonably collaborative with the outside world and covering up and massaging figures isn’t the exclusive preserve of the Chinese government, that's for sure. In any event, it should have been apparent to western governments what they were contending with some time ago, within the world we inhabit today,

This pandemic was entirely avoidable if adequate constraints were in place preventing, or at least significantly mitigating the risk of viruses jumping from species to species. It was avoidable principally because it has happened before and associated warnings were provided. The risk had been clearly identified and wholly inadequate steps were taken to tackle the threat. This is a government that has manifestly proved adept at setting rules and enforcing them rigorously in relation to other problems that have presented themselves, so they have no excuse for failing to act.

it seems to question this apparent lack of care and foresight, to raise this concern, as something that needs to be robustly tackled going forward, if we are to avoid repeating this again, leaves one open to accusations of latent racism from some quarters, which is simply absurd.

China, and much the rest of south east Asia needs to get a grip in this issue, and sharpish, and pointing this out is a perfectly reasonable and reasoned thing to do.

A sensible post, and of course it’s perfectly reasonable to question the actions of the Chinese government. There’s nothing remotely racist about that.

But the posters saying Chinese people are “dirty bastards” and “THEY should pay for what they’ve done” and threatening a boycott of anything related to China, well, I’m afraid, they are racist and should be called out as such.

 

[meltonblue]

Is it not? Why were they involved in distributing them then as a token of good will? Skeptics online, not just the right by the way, are suggesting it’s a PR strategy that lacks substance.

They weren’t, the Spanish and Dutch bought them off unlicensed manufacturers that weren’t on the approved list.

The government themselves and what they are doing are absolutely on a pr mission and I’m sure it’s not by any stretch entirely altruistic. If it saves lives, right now I don’t care though.