Keir Starmer

[urban genie]

Very much a leader is Starmer. Head and shoulders above Corbyn.

It seems we now may finally have a competent opposition to the government, could be the best thing to have happened to Labour in recent times.

Boring as fuck and unispiring though.

All I see is a watered down continuation of the present we have, with a little social democracy thrown in.

This pandemic should see new thinking come out of from all sides not more of the same.


And I think I need to reiterate I found corbyn to be annoyingly useless and was waiting for him to go for a while

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

So Labour is a mixture of

Momentum
Corbynists
Trots
Blairites
Jew haters
Deniers of antisemitism
Back stabbers of Corbyn
Those who kept quiet about the back stabbers
The metropolitan liberal elite
Any others?

No doubt plenty of crossover so ladies and gents that's the Labour Party the lefties on here vote for. No doubt their particular sub group is true and just though

PMSL

Just out of interest, what sub groups would you divide the tory party into - or are they all just a united bunch of great folk?

 

[urban genie]

So Labour is a mixture of

Momentum
Corbynists
Trots
Blairites
Jew haters
Deniers of antisemitism
Back stabbers of Corbyn
Those who kept quiet about the back stabbers
The metropolitan liberal elite
Any others?

No doubt plenty of crossover so ladies and gents that's the Labour Party the lefties on here vote for. No doubt their particular sub group is true and just though

PMSL

Really wish some would understand that linking the two in green as allies the ones in blue makes no fucking sense.

If you understand the history of the classification.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Really wish some would understand that linking the two in green as allies the ones in blue makes no fucking sense.

If you understand the history of the classification.

There is no understanding, it's just a parroting of learned slogans like any cult - essentially the rw equivalent of momentum, but gains legitimacy through repetition in the murdoch media.

 

[hilts]

Really wish some would understand that linking the two in green as allies the ones in blue makes no fucking sense.

If you understand the history of the classification.

I'm not linking any group with each other in fairness

 

[hilts]

Just out of interest, what sub groups would you divide the tory party into - or are they all just a united bunch of great folk?

You would do well to find a positive post from me about the Tories. I love the child like argument of you are negative about Labour so therefore must be as blue as chippy boy.;-)

We all love a bit of whataboutism on bluemoon;-)

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You would do well to find a positive post from me about the Tories. I love the child like argument of you are negative about Labour so therefore bust be as blue as chippy boy.;-)

We all love a bit of whataboutism on bluemoon;-)

Not at all. I agree that these factions exist, but was genuinely interested to see if you viewed similar factionilisation in other partys and specifically the Govt. If you don't it's no big deal.

 

[urban genie]

I'm not linking any group with each other in fairness

No my point is you cannot be the first two things and the last one.

But many have thrown them all together which is impossible

 

[hilts]

Not at all. I agree that these factions exist, but was genuinely interested to see if you viewed similar factionilisation in other partys and specifically the Govt. If you don't it's no big deal.

Tories generally fall into 2 groups selfish cunts or selfish cunts with a little voice that pops up every now and again and says too far

 

[hilts]

No my point is you cannot be the first two things and the last one.

But many have thrown them all together which is impossible

I never said you could though so was just clearing that up.

 

[urban genie]

I never said you could though so was just clearing that up.

Oh ok

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

So Labour is a mixture of

Momentum
Corbynists
Trots
Blairites
Jew haters
Deniers of antisemitism
Back stabbers of Corbyn
Those who kept quiet about the back stabbers
The metropolitan liberal elite
Any others?

No doubt plenty of crossover so ladies and gents that's the Labour Party the lefties on here vote for. No doubt their particular sub group is true and just though

PMSL

Classic misconception.

Momentum is circa 40k people - about 10% of labour members. The Corbynists are pretty much also Momentum. Momentum includes all Trots but is a much smaller number that are extreme enough to be a Trot. Those that are - are probably members of the SWP but vote Labour as they know the extreme parties are a waste of time. The Jew haters and Deniers of antisemitism are a v small minority and even though I accept that it is a problem it is more a problem of the fringe wacky groups / figures that Corbyn was close to - the majority of them are not members of the Labour party as they get thrown out eventually (Galloway, Walker, Williamson etc).

Momentum is actually closer to 'The metropolitan liberal elite' than it is to a Trott grouping. Momentum is officially Pro EU where as its is way to capitalist for your average Trot to be pro EU.

As for the rest - they are all just the 'The metropolitan liberal elite' which i take to mean people who have an above average education and tend to work in good jobs in big cities.

The Tory party is a much smaller membership comprised of mostly racists.

 

[meltonblue]

Right now we’ve got four years of a high majority Tory rule to look forward to. Personally I want as strong an opposition as possible in that time that can hold them to account - I don’t think it is the time for party politics as such, that will come as a bi-product of scrutinising them properly. How labour would run the country instead is also for a few years time.

Starmer, with his background as a QC, is the perfect opposition leader for right now. They don’t have the easy ideological way out as a rebuttal (any argument from Corbyn with merit, they ignored and fell back on personal criticism, something they’ll struggle far more to do now), he can analytically take most of the tories apart in an argument and he can make the most of focusing solely on that for the next couple of years - the most critical time we’ve had in politics and in life in generations.

 

[blueinsa]

The Tory party is a much smaller membership comprised of mostly racists.

You was doing so fucking well up to this point.

You as a poster are fucking miles better than this!

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

You was doing so fucking well up to this point.

You as a poster are fucking miles better than this!

I like the way he chucked it in at the end just to see who read it all. Top trolling.

 

[Rascal]

Corbyn was pure socialist and I doubt we’ll ever get a party leader more socialist than him.

labour got hammered.

it’s better to have a ‘Tory lite’ in charge that can implement more socialist values and shape him to do so - labour have a far better chance of getting into power come next election for a long long time.

Corbyn was not a pure Socialist, he is a Social Democrat, there is a difference.A Social Democrat is comfortable with a mixed economy, a Socialist wants a Command economy. A tory lite person in charge would not implement Socialist policies such as control of the means of production because the tories believe in a free market economy and are wedded to it ideologically. Blair was happy to allow the free market to reign free and Starmer will do the same because neither were/are Socialists. Starmer and Blair show with their pro EU stances that they are not Socialists as they are comfortable with the neo-liberal economy of the EU. For the UK to become a Socialist country we have to leave the EU, the red wall, the former Socialist heartlands voted to leave the EU not because those who live in red wall constituencies are racist or anything, but because they have seen the damage that neo-liberalism has caused to their towns and cities. Labour under Starmer does not get this, he is part of the metropolitan elite, he is pro EU, he was the architect of the disastrous EU policy that Labour made under Corbyn which in my opinion cost the party the election and gave the country the biggest laziest, most narcissistic, lying **** in our history the keys to number 10.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Corbyn was not a pure Socialist, he is a Social Democrat, there is a difference.A Social Democrat is comfortable with a mixed economy, a Socialist wants a Command economy. A tory lite person in charge would not implement Socialist policies such as control of the means of production because the tories believe in a free market economy and are wedded to it ideologically. Blair was happy to allow the free market to reign free and Starmer will do the same because neither were/are Socialists. Starmer and Blair show with their pro EU stances that they are not Socialists as they are comfortable with the neo-liberal economy of the EU. For the UK to become a Socialist country we have to leave the EU, the red wall, the former Socialist heartlands voted to leave the EU not because those who live in red wall constituencies are racist or anything, but because they have seen the damage that neo-liberalism has caused to their towns and cities. Labour under Starmer does not get this, he is part of the metropolitan elite, he is pro EU, he was the architect of the disastrous EU policy that Labour made under Corbyn which in my opinion cost the party the election and gave the country the biggest laziest, most narcissistic, lying **** in our history the keys to number 10.

Who do you suggest to be Labour Party leader in order for them to have the highest chance of winning the next election ?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Who do you suggest to be Labour Party leader in order for them to have the highest chance of winning the next election ?

That's a good question for anyone not impressed with Starmer. I think the problem is that our voting behaviour is essentially ruled by fear and negative choices. Although Boris certainly has his fans, the scale of his majority was due to the 'not corbyn' vote. Brexit was for some a pro-Britain vote, but again it was probably a negative vote against the EU that got it over the line. What Starmer needs to do is actually avoid having policies and just stay sat on the fence until the 'anything but tory' vote gains enough sway as it did in the late 90's when Blair was swept to power. The Tories have enjoyed 10 years of power based largely upon the fear of 'what labour did' in the 70's and the early 2000's rather than anything they have come up with themselves. We are essentially ruled by fear and bullied/coerced into many voting choices.

 

[urban genie]

The problem is, if you look at some older clips of Starmer in his CPS days he is a lot more relaxed and enthused, where his recent stuff seems very anylitical and clinical.

A leader needs to be those things but aslo like he is pasionate about what he is either promoting or opposing.


Corbyn, if you saw him live was very pasionate in his speaking and oppoaition and you see why so many who did go to his rallies were impressed with him, but then you had to be intereted on telly however he came across as, at times clueles, evasive and his general refusal to do interviews and distrupt of the main stream media means he left himself to have any narrative against him to be formed.
He also came across as bland at times and evsive

I wasn't a corbyn fan, I was a fan of a socialist manifesto however.


Back to starmer, al lI want to see is a bit of passion for the labour movement and when opposing, I want to see that we know he has distain for the tories and their policy that's all.


On his appointments, i don't mind shaking up and renewing the SC drawing from all branches, but again you need front benchers, that although knowledgable are relatable and look like they care.

Liz Kendall and streeting are bland and come across as clueless and I cannot even listen to what their message is.
Jess philips is a disloyal gobshite

The rest I am fine with.

I am glad Burgon was fucked off, the man was annoying and also terrible for getting the message across.

I do think removing gardener and lewis is a mistake, they may not toe the line and can sometimes go off message, but they came across as they gave a shite and were not shy of getting into it with an interviewer or tory.

There is a reason most past politicians remembered and if not liked maybe respected are the likes of John Prescot, ken clarke, hessletine, ashdown, robin cook, thatcher, kinnock etc and that is they all believed in their convictions and didn't hide the fact, starmer hasn't shown it yet, but maybe will over time.

As I have said policy will dictate my opinion mainly but I expect the labour party and leader to also be vigourously opposed to anything tory

 

[Hart of the Matter]

Corbyn was not a pure Socialist, he is a Social Democrat, there is a difference.A Social Democrat is comfortable with a mixed economy, a Socialist wants a Command economy. A tory lite person in charge would not implement Socialist policies such as control of the means of production because the tories believe in a free market economy and are wedded to it ideologically. Blair was happy to allow the free market to reign free and Starmer will do the same because neither were/are Socialists. Starmer and Blair show with their pro EU stances that they are not Socialists as they are comfortable with the neo-liberal economy of the EU. For the UK to become a Socialist country we have to leave the EU, the red wall, the former Socialist heartlands voted to leave the EU not because those who live in red wall constituencies are racist or anything, but because they have seen the damage that neo-liberalism has caused to their towns and cities. Labour under Starmer does not get this, he is part of the metropolitan elite, he is pro EU, he was the architect of the disastrous EU policy that Labour made under Corbyn which in my opinion cost the party the election and gave the country the biggest laziest, most narcissistic, lying **** in our history the keys to number 10.

Name a single 'true socialist' who has led the party to victory?
Truth is, labour is a broad church. It has never been a socialist party in the true sense.
Socialism as a term is so antiquated, it is so 19th Centuary. The whole vocab of the socialists is out dated. 'The Workers' etc means bot all in todays work place. The global economy is very different to the manufacturing base that drove socialism. It is time to reframe the focus and update the terminology. The targets can be the same but the methods need to change. A broad church is required to achieve this.