Another new Brexit thread

[Ancient Citizen]

There really is no guarantee that the EU grant pool will get agreed. Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and Austria have huge issues with it.
That said I'm sure the EU can find a fudge so those 4 dont pay much towards it.

It's a problem for them, for sure, thankfully theirs, not ours.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Yeah - it would - but next time you do one of these types of points/requests - can you do so by quoting one of the scores of Remainer posts that you could - Bob has given you plenty of opportunity today - rather than one of mine.

It would do wonders to evidence that you are indeed as balanced as I tend to accept that you are

I was talking to both of you which is why I posted @BobKowalski in my response. You really are unnecessarily sensitive imo.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

It’s a negotiation, we ask for we want, we lay out our red lines, if we can’t agree we move on. It’s not our side currently crying for an extension.

Its apparent to me and many others in this high stakes game of poker that the EU have been forced to show their hand. Asking for an extension, and refusing to give the uk the same trading relationship as Canada and japan. Their can be only one reason for both of these decisions. They fear and believe that the UK will do better on a no deal or with that trading relationship than countries in europe. There is no other rationale really. If we are so weak and feeble why would they be bothered.

 

[blueinsa]

Its apparent to me and many others in this high stakes game of poker that the EU have been forced to show their hand. Asking for an extension, and refusing to give the uk the same trading relationship as Canada and japan. Their can be only one reason for both of these decisions. They fear and believe that the UK will do better on a no deal or with that trading relationship than countries in europe. There is no other rationale really. If we are so weak and feeble why would they be bothered.

Petrified of a future where the UK operates on a different playing field is what they are.

 

[mcfc1632]

I was talking to both of you which is why I posted @BobKowalski in my response. You really are unnecessarily sensitive imo.

I can indeed accept that - but it is a simple fact that you have been entirely consistent in who you quote when you make such comments - perhaps it is reasonable to suggest that it would do you no harm to just have that in your mind in the future

 

[hgblue]

Its apparent to me and many others in this high stakes game of poker that the EU have been forced to show their hand. Asking for an extension, and refusing to give the uk the same trading relationship as Canada and japan. Their can be only one reason for both of these decisions. They fear and believe that the UK will do better on a no deal or with that trading relationship than countries in europe. There is no other rationale really. If we are so weak and feeble why would they be bothered.

My prediction? The unity of the EU27 will be the next casualty of this negotiation. It’s been easy for them to stay unified when they were negotiating with idiots like May and Robbins. Now some of them are facing real economic pain if they don’t intervene, so self preservation will trump trying to give the Brits a kicking.

 

[mcfc1632]

Its apparent to me and many others in this high stakes game of poker that the EU have been forced to show their hand. Asking for an extension, and refusing to give the uk the same trading relationship as Canada and japan. Their can be only one reason for both of these decisions. They fear and believe that the UK will do better on a no deal or with that trading relationship than countries in europe. There is no other rationale really. If we are so weak and feeble why would they be bothered.

It really is not difficult to understand - the EU are seeking for the UK to cede to them control over the key policies that would ensure that we cannot be competitive with the EU27 at any future point.

Why so many Remainers cannot see/understand it can only be due to a lack of understanding of how these controls would be used or wilfulness simply because they are locked into a need to be proven right on a football forum - they have chosen their side and are going to stick with the team no matter what they hear.

TBF - despite his inconsistency in so many ways yesterday - I give more credit to @BobKowalski on this - at least he had some honesty to admit his full support for a federal Europe yesterday:

A crisis accelerates the process. The migration crisis of 6 years ago accelerated the creation of Frontex the EU border force, tasked with policing the EU’s external border. The means to do so was already there but the crisis accelerated the process.

The election of Trump and his brand of batshit craziness accelerated the talk and formation of structures for a European defence policy.

The pandemic looks like accelerating the formalisation of a EU Treasury with powers to raise money, levy taxes.

Brexit means these processes can be carried out with less opposition.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I am seeking to minimise these federalisation processes. I am not. I welcome them. What holds a united Europe back is the timidity most, if not all, member states have toward a deeper entrenchment of the European project. Crisis overcomes this timidity. It is a shame it takes a crisis to overcome what should be the inevitable and logical outcome of the European project but it is what it is.

Bob was at least admitting that:

a) he wants a fully federal pan-Europe outcome and the UK within it
b) that he recognises that the EU will use the pandemic to herd nations into increased levels of federalism - straightforward exploitation of the crisis as they have previously

Bob is not stupid - but for years he has avoided being so open about his aspirations.

But that is not what most Remain posters in the country and on here want is it?

Let those who do want the UK in a fully federal EU declare it now - I bet there is not a flood of posts onto the thread

But this how those truly committed to the 'EU project' operate

The EU stealthily and incremental increases its control over the sovereign nations through taking such opportunities as the offered by the pandemic and - as Bob explains - every previous crisis and when required through treaty by treaty

The hypocrisy of Remain is laid bare by the amount of posts you have seen slagging of Leave for lies during the campaign - yet of course the Remain campaign lied so much during the campaign with regard to the future federalist direction of the EU - the EU shepherds don't feel that there is any need for the herd to know where they are being moved to

Just one example that was obvious at the time so had to be lied about - remember - no EU ambition for an army?

It is full on federalism that is the destination and if you stay on the train that is where you will end up and vetoes and opt-outs offered only protection to the gullible as they were already planned to be phased out. It was the EU's arrogance and contempt for electorates - including the UKs in the pre-referendum period (Tusk in particular) - that led to a significant part of the herd breaking loose.

Whilst they regret that - through the Level Playing Field regulations (sounds soooo reasonable described like that doesn't it) they are now seeking to steer us towards a controlled holding pen where we cannot possibly flourish and where we will become unhappy and pine for the rest of the herd so that they can round us up at a future point.

 

[mcfc1632]

Petrified of a future where the UK operates on a different playing field is what they are.

I have just sought to explain what the EU are doing - I winder if any of the herd will make the attempt to put 2 and 2 together

My guess is that what has become ingrained tribalism will win out

 

[mcfc1632]

My prediction? The unity of the EU27 will be the next casualty of this negotiation. It’s been easy for them to stay unified when they were negotiating with idiots like May and Robbins. Now some of them are facing real economic pain if they don’t intervene, so self preservation will trump trying to give the Brits a kicking.

Robbins and May - aka Remain control over the management of Brexit - have done so much damage to the UK that, even if we break free of the further controls that the EU seek to place on us - it will take decades to repair. We should, at a future point be considering repeal options

Re the bit bolded - I for one am not missing the smug face of Varadkar as he played to the cameras and domestic audience - of course with Tusk controlling the strings

 

[mcfc1632]

Not sure you understand this.

The plant has received £800m of uk support over 30 yeas while we were in the EU. That is why they are there and it was most likely good value for money given the prosperity of the region and number of decent jobs maintained over that timeframe.

Nissan have said that in a no deal scenario their EU business model will be unsustainable, so that plant will very likely close or we will have to throw a massive amount of money at them. Are we throwing money at every manufacturing business that needs support post brexit? A massive cost to add to the already obscene cost of delivering brexit. Or are we going to let them all close?

None of this backs up any rationale to leave the EU.

Yourself and a few other Remainers seemed to get into a pretty confused tizz about the announcements regarding Sunderland and Barcelona yesterday - why it should cause UK citizens such angst is a mystery to me (perhaps).

I remember a number of posts from Remainers desperately clinging to the hope that there could still be bad news for Sunderland - is it the hope that kills you?

Try selling Nissans into the Eu when they're subject to tariffs ...... try assembling them when 70% of the parts come from the Eu .

Anyway, this article pertains I think and also explains why, sensibly, no-deal is becoming the planning assumption for businesses

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-no-deal-brexit-is-now-all-but-inevitable

 

[hgblue]

Robbins and May - aka Remain control over the management of Brexit - have done so much damage to the UK that, even if we break free of the further controls that the EU seek to place on us - it will take decades to repair. We should, at a future point be considering repeal options

Re the bit bolded - I for one am not missing the smug face of Varadkar as he played to the cameras and domestic audience - of course with Tusk controlling the strings

He’s not looking quite so smug these days I’ve noticed..

 

[stonerblue]

I think it was pointed out to you on numerous occasions that Brexit would lead to a federal Europe. We don’t fear a federal Europe, we just didn’t want to be a part of it. Now that the Brits are out of the way you can crack on building your superstate which was always the plan. Here’s my question, what do you think the response of the people of Europe will be when the penny drops that they are no longer sovereign nations?

Maybe you can answer the question i asked days and pages ago? It's a simple one that seems to have flummoxed the usually very vocal posters.
How will i know when the uk gets its sovereignty back?

 

[stonerblue]

This was all explained to the British people ad Infinitum. Then we had a referendum to decide. Then we had a GE to ensure the referendum decision was implemented. We’ve made our choice, time to move on.

Was it explained? I couldn't find it on the side of the bus.

 

[stonerblue]

Parliament dictates how the UK's EU Trade Deal negotiations will concluded, and it is currently dominated, after a recent national General Election, by MP's who are in favour of leaving the EU with a deal, ahead of those MP's who do not wish to leave at all.

Since England, Scotland, Wales and to some extent Northern Ireland are combined and represented at Westminster and the House of Commons, i'd say that this nation, by the result of people having voted in favour majorily for leave supporting MP's, that your little "slight" that Scotland, NI and Wales (who also voted in favour of leaving... yet people like you always forget that and make this a "England vs ROUK" issue) is absolute bollocks.

You must have missed the entire point about what the GE was meant to resolve (hint: it wasn't free broadband) It is going to be no deal, we are going to sever all ties with the EU, and the EU will have to shoulder a lot of the blame for trying to turn the trade negotiations into an exercise to punish a former member to ensure other members don't have the same idea. Best you start preparing for it.

Sweet isolation it is then?

 

[BobKowalski]

Its apparent to me and many others in this high stakes game of poker that the EU have been forced to show their hand. Asking for an extension, and refusing to give the uk the same trading relationship as Canada and japan. Their can be only one reason for both of these decisions. They fear and believe that the UK will do better on a no deal or with that trading relationship than countries in europe. There is no other rationale really. If we are so weak and feeble why would they be bothered.

First off. The EU haven’t asked for an extension. Their calculation is that the time pressure will produce UK concessions as they did in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Does the EU think an extension is sensible? Yes because complex agreements take time and right now time has been shredded with the pandemic and attention is currently focused on digging European economies out of a hole. A hole that includes our economy. You have noticed that everyone is in the midst of a pandemic I take it? I ask because I am no longer convinced people are aware of the fucking obvious.

I will say this next bit slowly as it may come as a bit of a shock. The UK has not asked for a deal like Japan or Canada. There are complex reasons for this so you may want to make a cup of tea or something to help digest this next nugget of information. The UK is not Japan or Canada. Whoa. Big news I know but it is true. Japan and Canada are actually different countries and, you will like this next bit, they are far, far away and the UK is very, very close to the EU.

Now stay with me mon brave as we continue down this path of enlightenment. You may have heard of a country called the United States of America. Big country. Currently burning down to the ground. Canada is very, very close to the USA so it has a more comprehensive and deeper trade deal with the USA than it does the EU which is far, far away.

Like Canada with the USA, the UK has asked the EU for special provisions on Services, Security, Data sharing etc because the UK is very, very close to the EU and these special provisions reflect this. Some of these provisions usually only come with a Single Market and the EU will not trade these provisions lightly. The UK will have to offer something in return like say fish for a deal on financial services, or budgetary contributions or some form of freedom of movement (which we have asked for ‘professionals’ - not common folk you understand, oh no perish the thought).

So when you say the EU will not offer the UK a deal like Canada or Japan you will now appreciate a large part of the reason why is because we haven’t asked for a deal like Canada or Japan. Nor should we. We should be asking for an ambitious and special deal and to get it we will have to start offering goodies and commitments in return.

Hope this has helped you and your Brexiteer pals.

 

[hgblue]

Was it explained? I couldn't find it on the side of the bus.

Did you not receive your tax payer funded pro EU propaganda leaflet? It was sent to every household. Did you miss the Prime Minister, Chancellor, Governor of the Bank of England, the IMF, the president of the US, and Bob Twatting Geldof banging on about this for months? You only noticed what was written on the side of a bus?

 

[mcfc1632]

He’s not looking quite so smug these days I’ve noticed..

And of course - now the EU's purpose has been served - the subject of Ireland's policy on Corporation Tax is back under discussion as part of strings attached to pandemic grants

Funny how things work out....

 

[Metal Biker]

Sweet isolation it is then?

Nope; opening up to the rest of the world, and not focusing solely on one isolated protectionist bloc like the EU.

There's a big ol' world out there, if you haven't noticed.

 

[stonerblue]

I can imagine you thinking that

you're not getting any better at long distance mind reading Blue.
Well written, clear and concise. Flows nicely without overusing italics, bolding or bullet points.

 

[Metal Biker]

Did you not receive your tax payer funded pro EU propaganda leaflet? It was sent to every household. Did you miss the Prime Minister, Chancellor, Governor of the Bank of England, the IMF, the president of the US, and Bob Twatting Geldof banging on about this for months? You only noticed what was written on the side of a bus?

In fairness it WAS very big letters and kept to a short sentence.
Much easier to read than the leaflet.