Salford_Blue
Well-Known Member
Beat me to it...
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Kalidou Koulibaly
- Thread starter Matt Diablo
- Start date
Beat me to it...
In the games we've lost 5 goals have been defensive errors, 1 due to poor CB not stepped out quick enough at Wolves. The others were Mane back post at Anfield (Walker at fault), Martial in the home derby (Angelino not putting a tackle in) and two Ederson goalkeeping errors at Salford.Is he going to stop us making defensive errors in critical positions? Yes.
Is he going to be a leader to help organise all those around him? Yes.
Is he going to bring years of top level experience and keep a cool head in big games? Yes.
Will he make stupid decisions and jump in like Otamendi leaving a one on one for forwards? No.
Will be pushed off the ball or stumble in possession like Stones? No.
Is he better at CB than a 35 year old converted DM? Yes.
Does he have more recovery pace than any of our current CBs thus reducing the likelihood of a key chance? Yes.
Will he improve our team? Yes.
Is he going to stop Salah or Mane one on one? Why the fuck wouldn't he? I saw Garcia tackle Mane the other day, why won't a world class defender be able to do the same? To say 'No' categorically is nonsense. EDIT - as others have pointed out, he's already done this for Napoli!
You're asking the wrong questions. All those questions basically undermine someone like Kompany. Are you seriously telling me that VK's presence last year in the run in was basically null and void because we weren't having problems in other positions last year? Clearly bollocks. Koulibaly doesn't solve every problem throughout the team (OBVIOUSLY ffs) but he does solve the ones we're having that our specific to CBs. He is better than Stones, Otamendi, Fernandinho and Garcia currently. Probably possibly better than Laporte, if not level. He improves us, and that's all that will matter.
They are the best around absolutely but it won't prevent the cause, the cause of the majority of the 9 defeats. They might prevent a couple but when isolated and exposed 1v1, no defender is great.All counter attacks come from someone losing possesion, all midfield players lose psession at some points. We need centre backs that are aware and good enough to cover those counter attacks Koulibaly is, as is Laporte. Simple as that.
What goals would Koulibaly's physicality at CB stop from the games we've lost? Maybe a block at Spurs for the Bergwyn goal but that's it.But it's a ridiculous post because none of the points he made are true.
For a start, simply having someone of the physicality of KK is going to make a huge difference.
It means we can push the line higher which means the midfielders can press much more effectively and if they do get bypassed, you dont have a CB taken out of the game immediately like Otamendi is - so you literally do have an extra man in defence in those counterattack situations.
In possession the higher line means the gap between midfield and defence is smaller so its easier to make passes and retain the ball.
Great distribution means the forwards getting the ball earl, in space- we've all seen the benefits of Laportes diagonal balls out to the wings.
Walker absolutely transformed our defence in 2017 because his pace at the back allowed everything else to slot into place. Koulibaly adds that again, as well as the distribution of Laporte and leadership/experience as well.
The solution to the exposed defence is not to compromise the midfield to protect it, it's just to make the defence stronger.
The other statements are all subjective and can be argued against, they're a matter of opinion.
Er, so are yours.What goals would Koulibaly's physicality at CB stop from the games we've lost? Maybe a block at Spurs for the Bergwyn goal but that's it.
The other statements are all subjective and can be argued against, they're a matter of opinion.
Btw I'm not saying Koulibaly isn't a great player and wouldn't improve us. For clarity, I'm saying is no matter how good he is, the other issues (lack of width leading to slow build-up play) will mean his impact would be very small.
Very true it's only my opinion, you don't have to agree with it. I maybe proved very wrong, I hope I am. I have tried to give a breakdown of all the goals we conceded to give some validity to those statements and opinions.Er, so are yours.
blueparrot
Well-Known Member
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- 7 Jun 2012
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The way we play will always leave us open to a turnover and counter attack, nothing will change that, Having the best centre backs will minimise it and cut some of the conceded goals out, as well as make it easier to keep posession. Koulibaly and Laporte would be perfect. Do we need a couple of other singings, yes are any more important, no.They are the best around absolutely but it won't prevent the cause, the cause of the majority of the 9 defeats. They might prevent a couple but when isolated and exposed 1v1, no defender is great.
I've seen Nicolas Pepe destroy Van Dijk, what's your point?Me too, I've seen Mane and Salah both destroy him.
Jesus too for crying out loud.
Exactly that, defenders when left isolated 1v1 will get destroyed. It doesn't matter who we buy, if we don't prevent the counter attacks from happening (as frequently as they do now), we'll see no significant difference in the goals we concede. The goals we conceded in the 9 games we lost aren't due to poor CB's or poor defending, excluding Wolves away, they're due to a variety of other factors.I've seen Nicolas Pepe destroy Van Dijk, what's your point?
Jesus too for crying out loud.
What was Otamendi at Norwich then?Exactly that, defenders when left isolated 1v1 will get destroyed. It doesn't matter who we buy, if we don't prevent the counter attacks from happening (as frequently as they do now), we'll see no significant difference in the goals we concede. The goals we conceded in the 9 games we lost aren't due to poor CB's or poor defending, excluding Wolves away, they're due to a variety of other factors.
What goals would Koulibaly's physicality at CB stop from the games we've lost? Maybe a block at Spurs for the Bergwyn goal but that's it.
The other statements are all subjective and can be argued against, they're a matter of opinion.
You're presuming the games would play out in entirely the same way. They wouldn't would they? Leadership, composure, a slightly different setup due to his extra pace. All these things feed into a game plan and overall team confidence.
Yes, all of this. It's a bizarre argument to make considering we how we JUST watched ten years of Vincent Kompany having this exact impact. He was injured most of the time also, so it wasn't because of some crazy physicality, it was everything else he brought to the table.You're presuming the games would play out in entirely the same way. They wouldn't would they? Leadership, composure, a slightly different setup due to his extra pace. All these things feed into a game plan and overall team confidence.
Chi-town blues
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- Joined
- 5 May 2012
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- 31,363
what we need is a good defender and a speedy dm .
Very true, I forgot that one. It was in the original list.What was Otamendi at Norwich then?
In that case, the answers bto some of the questions he posed is therefore 'Yes' and not 'No'. But many of the questions he asks are genuinely not going to be solved by adding a CB.But it's a ridiculous post because none of the points he made are true.
For a start, simply having someone of the physicality of KK is going to make a huge difference.
It means we can push the line higher which means the midfielders can press much more effectively and if they do get bypassed, you dont have a CB taken out of the game immediately like Otamendi is - so you literally do have an extra man in defence in those counterattack situations.
In possession the higher line means the gap between midfield and defence is smaller so its easier to make passes and retain the ball.
Great distribution means the forwards getting the ball earl, in space- we've all seen the benefits of Laportes diagonal balls out to the wings.
Walker absolutely transformed our defence in 2017 because his pace at the back allowed everything else to slot into place. Koulibaly adds that again, as well as the distribution of Laporte and leadership/experience as well.
The solution to the exposed defence is not to compromise the midfield to protect it, it's just to make the defence stronger.
Width and Pace are the antidote to stacked defense. We can pass around all day and still lose. As has happened in 7 of the 9 loses this season.
Unforced errors inain the midfield is another area he is right about. Perhaps the confidence brought by having Koulibaly might make midfielders lose the ball less in compromising positions. But this too isn't immediately self evident.
Is he going to stop us being outnumbered on breakaways? Probably not. Especially when he is one of those who had gone up to get a header on a corner. These observations should not be read as a suggestion against getting a talented player. But rather highlighting that our problems are deeper than is being suggested.
I agree with you that he'll do better in a high line, even though we quite frankly already do alright. I totally agree he is capable of stopping Salah and Mane 1 v 1. Frankly in the games ive seen both Salah and Mane have an unusual amount of respect for him. So he clearly is in their head... By the way, so is my boy Soyuncu :P
So yes, Koulibaly would be great ( so would Soyuncu) but we need more.
Both sentiments are not mutually exclusive.
Is he going to stop us making defensive errors in critical positions? Yes.
Is he going to be a leader to help organise all those around him? Yes.
Is he going to bring years of top level experience and keep a cool head in big games? Yes.
Will he make stupid decisions and jump in like Otamendi leaving a one on one for forwards? No.
Will be pushed off the ball or stumble in possession like Stones? No.
Is he better at CB than a 35 year old converted DM? Yes.
Does he have more recovery pace than any of our current CBs thus reducing the likelihood of a key chance? Yes.
Will he improve our team? Yes.
Is he going to stop Salah or Mane one on one? Why the fuck wouldn't he? I saw Garcia tackle Mane the other day, why won't a world class defender be able to do the same? To say 'No' categorically is nonsense. EDIT - as others have pointed out, he's already done this for Napoli!
You're asking the wrong questions. All those questions basically undermine someone like Kompany. Are you seriously telling me that VK's presence last year in the run in was basically null and void because we weren't having problems in other positions last year? Clearly bollocks. Koulibaly doesn't solve every problem throughout the team (OBVIOUSLY ffs) but he does solve the ones we're having that our specific to CBs. He is better than Stones, Otamendi, Fernandinho and Garcia currently. Probably possibly better than Laporte, if not level. He improves us, and that's all that will matter.
Nail on the head. No matter how CTID tries to dress it up our current centre back options are not and will not be good enough.
Of course they do but the pattern of play has been pretty similar all season, one player isn't going to dramatically change things for the better. The system is causing defenders to be isolated, isolated defenders can only do so much. Koulibaly on his own doesn't enable you to change the system to stop the cause of the counter attacks, so his impact would be very limited.You're presuming the games would play out in entirely the same way. They wouldn't would they? Leadership, composure, a slightly different setup due to his extra pace. All these things feed into a game plan and overall team confidence.
Before you or anyone else think it's a dig at Pep, it 100% isn't, he's had limited options without Sane to make the required changes to give us width when we've needed it. Even if Sterling remains as the primary left winger, the option of changing system with a natural left winger means the opposition have to have multiple game plans to prepare. This season has been inverted wingers, inverted wingers and inverted wingers meaning teams can stay compact, defend in central areas only, restrict space and break fast when we invariably lose possession.
Kompany had huge impact over 10 years, if you honestly believe Koulibaly can come in and provide the same level of leadership on and off the pitch immediately, you're disrespecting what Kompany brought to the club and his understanding of everything City and everything Manchester. No player in the world could have that impact, it's absolutely impossible.Yes, all of this. It's a bizarre argument to make considering we how we JUST watched ten years of Vincent Kompany having this exact impact. He was injured most of the time also, so it wasn't because of some crazy physicality, it was everything else he brought to the table.
blueparrot
Well-Known Member
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- 7 Jun 2012
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- 33,411
Whether he can or not, and he can probably play a lot more than Kompany did, non of that is a reason not to buy him because one thing for sure is he can do it better than any of the alternatives other than Laporte. So why wouldn’t we try and get himKompany had huge impact over 10 years, if you honestly believe Koulibaly can come in and provide the same level of leadership on and off the pitch immediately, you're disrespecting what Kompany brought to the club and his understanding of everything City and everything Manchester. No player in the world could have that impact, it's absolutely impossible.
Exactly that, defenders when left isolated 1v1 will get destroyed. It doesn't matter who we buy, if we don't prevent the counter attacks from happening (as frequently as they do now), we'll see no significant difference in the goals we concede. The goals we conceded in the 9 games we lost aren't due to poor CB's or poor defending, excluding Wolves away, they're due to a variety of other factors.
It's quite perplexing how whenever this occurs, people automatically blame the CBs without looking at the problem wider.
Some of our supporters don't seem to be learning from history even though it's repeating itself.