#8 | Ilkay Gündoğan - 2020/21 Performances

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oldius said:
A wonderful player and the traditional scapegoat required by many after a defeat. I find constant references to his 'poor' performances both embarrassing and nauseating, in equal measure.
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I`m not scapegoating him after a defeat. I looked at the team and thought we`d struggle with the team that was selected. I feel we can`t play him, Rodri and Fern in the same team in the positions they were played. Thats feeling before the game isn`t a 1 off its happen quite often this season that we would struggle.

The collect wtf on the coach to home games or the coach to away games if people struggle to comprehend Peps team selections. In all honest the vast majority of the time the feeling we would struggle was a correct one.

As for Gundogan I think he`s timid which is possible down to his two near career threatening injuries and needs too many touches which slows our play down.

It`s not his fault, he does pick himself.
 
domalino said:
I think people are vastly overcomplicating this.

David Silva couldn't run anymore.

Bernardo and Phil are not Silva replacements yet - they don't hold onto the ball and pass 100 times a game and let us establish that continuous possession in the opponents 1/3rd that's the defining feature of Pep's City. That's why Pep puts them on the wing instead.

Gundogan was the only one who can do that job in Silva's absence.

We'll buy Aouar and Gundogan will be back on the bench.
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I agree with all that and it’s what pep sees I think sometimes in knockout games you need to gamble and lose that control pep always likes for a more of a end to end game but hey Pep best manager ever I know nothing it’s just a point and my opinion.
 
Gundogan is not a attacking midfielder and goes hiding when it gets tough, never makes space and wants for the ball never gives the wide man a options sterling the other night made many runs and got the ball but Gundogan never once help him out and taking the ball off him

pep system is very top heavy up front and going forward ? the holding midfield player have to work very hard because others pack the midfield knowing only 1 will be holding ? or 2 when better teams play city, only fernandinho can do that role in the city squad and pep plays him at centre back all season ?

Gundogan does not fill me with hope and does he ever stand out in this team and takes his place on form ??
pep must see something ? but i know when pep changes the system and plays Gundogan in that role in the bigger games we struggle ? so results and defeats will stand out like the other night

i understand pep view on the defence and playing 3 at the back but having Gundogan and Rodri in the midfield was a puzzle ? both had poor games and not one of them got hold of the game and took it on and drive the team forward

there used to be this old fashion system in football that many never understood outside of the game ? it was called 5 and 5 ?, 5 defence 5 attacking ? simple basic rules you had to work with, a balance attack with defending a line

but modern day managers and pep took the basic setup and put it in the bin ? but that good old fashion setup of 5 and 5 others use against us works so well ? it makes us look silly at times ? for me its know your role ? don't ask players to do something they just don't understand in the biggest game of the year ? right back at left back ? 3 at the back ? KDB up front ? and asking Rodri and Gundogan to play the david silva role ?
 
Shaelumstash said:
Every single minute of every Champions League game.

While David Silva, Bernado Silva and Phil Foden remain on the bench.

Is this part of Gundogan’s renewed contract?

Is it Pep being stubborn and trying to prove himself right, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

Is it just a blind spot?

Do his coaches / Txiki even dare to raise the question to him, or is Pep’s opinion now completely sacred and beyond reproach?
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Apart from the fact Foden,Merlin and Bernardo are totally different players who play different roles to Gundogan , all three of the players mentioned play as a number ten or can drift wide and are in the team to create , Gundogan doesnt and never will , he is in the team to hold the ball and rotate and retain possession and give the ball to the player who can create , commonly known as a "water carrier" these type of players do not recieve the plaudits , in fact some fans actually despise them
Not sure if you have noticed in the four seasons Pep has been here , his whole game plan is about ball retention and Gundogan alongside Merlin is the best at it.
 
As I said on the Gundogan thread, he's not the problem. He's an excellent passer and was brilliant for us in the title run-in last year.

The problem is playing Rodri, Gudogan and Fernandinho in the same side. On Saturday we only had 3 attacking/flair players out of 11 - even De Bruyne, Sterling and Jesus aren't that good - i.e. good enough to do everything themselves in the attacking third.

Two days later I'm still scratching my head trying to work out how Pep thought that would work against a team as good a Lyon. And why didn't he change things after 20/25 mins?
 
domalino said:
I think people are vastly overcomplicating this.

David Silva couldn't run anymore.

Bernardo and Phil are not Silva replacements yet - they don't hold onto the ball and pass 100 times a game and let us establish that continuous possession in the opponents 1/3rd that's the defining feature of Pep's City. That's why Pep puts them on the wing instead.

Gundogan was the only one who can do that job in Silva's absence.

We'll buy Aouar and Gundogan will be back on the bench.
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hope so
 
jimmygrimblesboots said:
Not sure why Gundogan always gets it in the neck when sometimes the whole team are abysmal , its a trait of football fans world wide , someone to hate , before he even steps on the pitch he is vilified on here , we have had hate figures over the years Richard Edghill being the stand out example for me.

But at least our hate figures quality has improved German international , euro champs wiinner , bundesliga winner , premier league winner , and other multiple trophies , Richard Edghill won f*ck all.
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He isnt the only one that get s it though

Sterling and Jesus have both come under pressure at different points of the season, you have also forgotten about FFS Marhez! Mendy has been rightly questioned as well...so its not exactly like he is a scapegoat

But this is a thread about Gundogan so it would seem right to be discussing him here.
 
RobMCFC said:
As I said on the Gundogan thread, he's not the problem. He's an excellent passer and was brilliant for us in the title run-in last year.

The problem is playing Rodri, Gudogan and Fernandinho in the same side. On Saturday we only had 3 attacking/flair players out of 11 - even De Bruyne, Sterling and Jesus aren't that good - i.e. good enough to do everything themselves in the attacking third.

Two days later I'm still scratching my head trying to work out how Pep thought that would work against a team as good a Lyon. And why didn't he change things after 20/25 mins?
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Why wasnt there a similar thread on Rodri or Dinho ? They were just as culpable , but Gundogan has always been the easy target on this forum
 
RobMCFC said:
As I said on the Gundogan thread, he's not the problem. He's an excellent passer and was brilliant for us in the title run-in last year.

The problem is playing Rodri, Gudogan and Fernandinho in the same side. On Saturday we only had 3 attacking/flair players out of 11 - even De Bruyne, Sterling and Jesus aren't that good - i.e. good enough to do everything themselves in the attacking third.

Two days later I'm still scratching my head trying to work out how Pep thought that would work against a team as good a Lyon. And why didn't he change things after 20/25 mins?
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While I agree the bigger problem i those 3 (or any combination fo the two of them), for me Gudogan serves no purpose - he isnt better defensively than the other two and he isnt better than any of our creative midfielders (Foden, KDB Bernardo, Mahrez).

If you want to protect your back 4 you play either rodri or Ferna - if you want to create you play any of the others....

Gundogan slows our game down, doesnt create anything, is weak defensively, offers very little going forward. He may have bee a different player before his injuries but this is the player we have got now.

His ball retention is good (better than Ferna's) but his 2-3 yd passes make a mockery of his passing stats and can actually cause problems leading to other teams pressing us and us losing possession. When someone goes past him (which aint hard) he is done for.
 
jimmygrimblesboots said:
Apart from the fact Foden,Merlin and Bernardo are totally different players who play different roles to Gundogan , all three of the players mentioned play as a number ten or can drift wide and are in the team to create , Gundogan doesnt and never will , he is in the team to hold the ball and rotate and retain possession and give the ball to the player who can create , commonly known as a "water carrier" these type of players do not recieve the plaudits , in fact some fans actually despise them
Not sure if you have noticed in the four seasons Pep has been here , his whole game plan is about ball retention and Gundogan alongside Merlin is the best at it.
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Thanks for the "Football Basics 101" lesson. I think you'll find Gundogan has been played as a number 8 in our classic 433 on countless occasions. In fact, that was the position he was bought for. It's the same position David Silva plays, Bernando won our player of the season playing, and Phil Foden's natural position.

It was only in an emergency due to an injury to Fernandinho that Gundogan was even tried as a defensive midfielder. At the time, plenty of people were saying he didn't have the tools to play that role, but he ended up getting away with it because he was quite good at passing.

The problem is, a classic "water carrier" as you put it, needs to be able to read play, make interceptions, track runners, make tackles, break up play, stop counter-attacks. Gundogan has proven time and time again he's completely incapable of doing any of those things.

The only thing he's good at is keeping possession. Receiving the ball, then giving it back to the same man. Playing square. Playing backwards. His pass completion stats are through the roof, because he doesn't pass the ball forwards. It slows us down. Stifles our attacking options.

You say Bernado can not play there. Cast your mind back to Anfield a couple of seasons ago. Bernado played there in a two and was the best player on the pitch. As I said, because he's aggressive, competitive, can read play, anticipate, win a tackle.

All Gundogan can do is plod around in concrete boots and play keep ball backwards and sideways. Fine if you're defending a 1-0 lead in the last 5 minutes, but when you're trying to break a team down and need a goal, he offers the square root of fuck all.
 
His only good run of form was us was in the run in last year.

We needed a direct Fernandinho replacement

That run in seemingly convinced Pep it should be a Gundogan type infront of back 4 so we bought Rodri

Now we are stuck with 2 one paced midfielders who are easily bypassed
 
I think its less about the individual player and more about the system. A midfield containing two from Gundogan, Rodri and Silva doesn't provide enough energy in midfield to allow us to press effectively. As we dominate possession in nearly every game these players end up closer to the opposition goal than our own, when they the other team breaks on us at pace, we struggle to nullify that threat.

It hasn't helped that our defence has been so vulnerable this season with Laporte out for so long, Fernandinho played out of position and loss of form from both Otamendi and Stones.

As Silva has now left that is one partnership we won't see and hopefully Pep will rotate Rodri and Gundogan rather than attempt to play them together.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Thanks for the "Football Basics 101" lesson. I think you'll find Gundogan has been played as a number 8 in our classic 433 on countless occasions. In fact, that was the position he was bought for. It's the same position David Silva plays, Bernando won our player of the season playing, and Phil Foden's natural position.

It was only in an emergency due to an injury to Fernandinho that Gundogan was even tried as a defensive midfielder. At the time, plenty of people were saying he didn't have the tools to play that role, but he ended up getting away with it because he was quite good at passing.

The problem is, a classic "water carrier" as you put it, needs to be able to read play, make interceptions, track runners, make tackles, break up play, stop counter-attacks. Gundogan has proven time and time again he's completely incapable of doing any of those things.

The only thing he's good at is keeping possession. Receiving the ball, then giving it back to the same man. Playing square. Playing backwards. His pass completion stats are through the roof, because he doesn't pass the ball forwards. It slows us down. Stifles our attacking options.

You say Bernado can not play there. Cast your mind back to Anfield a couple of seasons ago. Bernado played there in a two and was the best player on the pitch. As I said, because he's aggressive, competitive, can read play, anticipate, win a tackle.

All Gundogan can do is plod around in concrete boots and play keep ball backwards and sideways. Fine if you're defending a 1-0 lead in the last 5 minutes, but when you're trying to break a team down and need a goal, he offers the square root of fuck all.
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Couldnt even be bothered reading it pal , but the lesson is free.
 
Right now for me, neither him or Rodri have shown themselves to be any better than Javi Garcia or Fernando, in spite of being in far superior teams. Both of those looked weak but had poorer players around them.

so for me I don’t think we’ve actually upgraded that spot ever.
 
Thaksinssoldier said:
Right now for me, neither him or Rodri have shown themselves to be any better than Javi Garcia or Fernando, in spite of being in far superior teams. Both of those looked weak but had poorer players around them.

so for me I don’t think we’ve actually upgraded that spot ever.
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Kante is the best player in that role , but Chelsea would never sell him to us , great defensive /holding mids are a rare breed.
 
Offers us nothing in games like this, but Pep loves him in the champs league for some reason. Get rid this summer if there are any takers.
 
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