Another new Brexit thread

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Absolutely - we have had months of these few posters banging on about the ills that would result from a TA with the USA - Project Fear Mk V11 I think it was

Now the same posters further display the only string to their bow - surfing the internet to find perceived bad news for the UK

I don't wish to see the UK in the position of breaking international law - but their stance is simply hypocrisy on a daily basis
Remember Corbyn and Johnson's 'Toxic trade deal?'
All of a sudden it's nothing of the kind now, and they've just become one of our biggest trade partners.
It's great in here sometimes, lol.
 
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It’s never been about not getting a trade deal, it’s about what regulations (or lack of) we would be willing to accept in order to get it.
 
I can also smell bullshit and this post reeks of it. It is possible to be nervous about a US trade deal negotiated from a position of weakness outside the EU whilst also recognising that the US is our biggest individual trading partner as a single country, and pissing them off is not a great idea even for existing trade, never mind the increased trade we would hope to get as a result of a trade deal.

It’s also not wrong to point out that trade comparisons between the US and the EU as a whole show that EU trade is much more important. It doesn’t mean that US trade is insignificant.

Everything is always black and white with you. Saying things like we’re hypocritical if we’re bothered about US trade at all because of the chlorinated chicken issue is moronic.
Although you probably know this and you’re wumming.

The US has had a trade deal with Israel since 1985.

I don't think they are really in a place to lecture other countries over deals that may affect peace at borders.
 
It wasn't just the insignificance - we were warned of the huge dangers to our food supply and healthcare inherent in doing a trade deal with the US. Pick your poison by all means,either may be true, but you can't have it both ways.
Somehow, I don't think too much attention was paid to these dire forecasts. More certainties are being bandied about now, nobody will want to deal with us, everyone's laughing, we're totally fucked, the usual stuff.
Let's wait until all these things, or even one of them, does happen.
 
The US has had a trade deal with Israel since 1985.

I don't think they are really in a place to lecture other countries over deals that may affect peace at borders.

Morally no.
Economically they can do what they want.
Politically - they will always side with Ireland over us (Irish Catholic thing) and Ireland side with the EU.

So the threat of pissing off the US via pissing of the ROI is a very real thing and blows a massive hole in the 'global trading' rationale for brexit if the government get there way.
 
The US has had a trade deal with Israel since 1985.

I don't think they are really in a place to lecture other countries over deals that may affect peace at borders.
Not being in a place to lecture other countries has no relevance to them lecturing other countries. They do what they want. That’s what comes with being the world’s largest economic and military power.

As a country outside of the other leading economic bloc we’re not in a great position to ignore their unwelcome lecture or to make a response that they won’t dismiss.
 
They are one of our biggest trading partners. It would be a disaster to be trading on WTO rules with them, or anyone. The chlorinated chicken thing is just an example of our new 'lesser' status in terms of power and influence now that we've left the EU, no longer have the clout that comes from being part of that bloc and are desperate for friends. Unfortunately for us, we are acting like a bunch of cunts and friends are going to become harder and harder to find (breaking international law generally isn't a smart move).
@Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese gave you a sensible response to your good points raised - but I will add to it...

There needs to be recognition that the UK has now left the EU and if it is to be able to achieve success as an independent state it needs to be able to manage its own affairs and priorities.

Perpetual subservience to EU policy cannot be accepted - so LPF, ECJ arbitration and other such fundamental constraints must be non-starters.

The ability for the UK to determine its own policies and manage its own implementation of those policies has been badly undermined by the administrations of both Cameron and May.

Cameron's undermining of the UK was less serious because it was done pre-referendum and although he handed over negotiating leverage to the EU in his 'supposed negotiations' in the way he broadcast how bad leaving the EU would be and how he marshalled the POTUS, head of the IMF and a parade of other 'worthies' to try and defeat a Leave outcome - it did not undermine the 'future' of the UK in a post-Brexit world.

May's undermining of the UK - along with the actions of the EU's sycophants at Westminster has resulted in the potential for major and perpetual damage to the UK through tying the UK to the EU's controls - wrapped up in the WA that the EU/Robbins/May produced.

The UK needs to break free of the negotiating leverage that May has handed to the EU - and the potential for a US/UK trade deal at the moment is just part of that leverage.

We have had years of the EU callously making use of the Ireland/N.I. border issue - pulling Varadkar's strings - to leverage that issue to either prevent Brexit or gain more controls in the WA - they would have drank much champagne when May/Robbins fell for the obscenity that was the unfettered backstop. And during this time we had Pelosi and others over from the US to reaffirm their 'commitment to Ireland' and clearly state that a TA will not be agreed if.....

Much is made of the fact that Johnson signed off on May's WA - minus the unfettered backstop - but that WA was indeed the product of years of control by the EU over Robbins/May. Out of the blue - the clouds parted and Johnson was given a stonking majority and 5 years to use it.

I have always said that:

"We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they are faced with the prospect of a viable walk-away option – and the political will to use it”

And it has always been true - which is why some posters try to demean it.

I think that a decision was made to simply lose no more time in trying renegotiations with the EU - they love to string them out for years - and to exit the transition period with or without a deal end 2020 - and a deal could not include the EU having the ability to control and constrain the UK beyond transition. Hence the PD has been thankfully jettisoned and robust action is being signalled to prevent the 'veiled threat of machinations' by the EU to inappropriately exploit the protocol

What will be will be - the EU will either reach a deal with the UK on the basis of our red lines or not - but there is no point wasting more months and years sitting around a table which is what the EU wants to do - ideally until the next election

Johnson's government has 4 years to implement policies that deliver on his manifesto promises to level up in the Midlands and the North - that is how he will be judged in 2024 and the clock is ticking. None of those 4 years can be wasted in more deliberate delay with the EU - and by extension - what will be in the US will be - it looks like the Democrats will win so that would also be years wasted on negotiations on a TA with Ireland again being used as a gambit.

The Remainer focus is all on trade - yes it is important - but the UK needs significant and direct investment in the UK - investment that the EU will seek to stymie because it will impact the significant benefits they get from the current trading position with and their controls over the UK.

I still think a deal can/will be secured - because the EU very badly need one as well - but it must not include continued controls by the EU over the UK.

My mantra has always been correct - but if we end up with no-deal - then better sooner rather than later
 
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Somehow, I don't think too much attention was paid to these dire forecasts. More certainties are being bandied about now, nobody will want to deal with us, everyone's laughing, we're totally fucked, the usual stuff.
Let's wait until all these things, or even one of them, does happen.

Waiting until the shit hits the fan good and proper before doing a u-turn does seem to be this governments modus operandi.
 
A US, politically motivated declaration that there will be no trade deal with the UK is an empty threat.

Evil USA most of the time and as soon as someone motivated by politics says no trade deal, it's all hail the US of A.

Money rules the world, not Nancy Pelosi.
 
One person's empty threat is another person's negotiating tactic

UK, the new North Korea.

I look forwards to the entire world refusing to do business with the worlds 5th largest economy because of a row in negotiations with the EU.

Not going to happen!
 
UK, the new North Korea.

I look forwards to the entire world refusing to do business with the worlds 5th largest economy because of a row in negotiations with the EU.

Not going to happen!

You can't deny that is diminishes our standing internationally. If post-brexit Britain is going to succeed in anything like the way some of those who supported it hope it will then it will be in part because of our reputation and good standing in the world. This episode damages that. You don't think that is significant, other people do.
 
It wasn't just the insignificance - we were warned of the huge dangers to our food supply and healthcare inherent in doing a trade deal with the US. Pick your poison by all means,either may be true, but you can't have it both ways.
Those examples were indeed the focus of Remainer comments along with trying to tie in Brexit supporters to be pro-Trump

Some of them - the usual suspects - just go wherever there is some opportunity to demean Brexit - no matter if it demonstrates double-standards and hypocrisy
 
Morally no.
Economically they can do what they want.
Politically - they will always side with Ireland over us (Irish Catholic thing) and Ireland side with the EU.

So the threat of pissing off the US via pissing of the ROI is a very real thing and blows a massive hole in the 'global trading' rationale for brexit if the government get there way.
So........

We either accept all the constraints that the EU wish to engineer either directly or through extended influence - such as with the US - or we don't

You only emphasise that there is absolutely no point with further and endless talks that are only a deliberate ploy of the EU

They banged on for many months about the need to extend - it is all they want to do - ideally until 2024 - if not they want perpetual controls over the UK

All UK citizens - IMO - should not wish to see this
 
Those examples were indeed the focus of Remainer comments along with trying to tie in Brexit supporters to be pro-Trump

Some of them - the usual suspects - just go wherever there is some opportunity to demean Brexit - no matter if it demonstrates double-standards and hypocrisy

Are you sure it isn’t about ensuring we retain similar standards in our regulations in future trade deals as we have now, as that was what the argument around a potential US trade deal was mainly about to me? As that wouldn’t be hypocritical or double standards at all.

I haven’t seen anyone saying they don’t want a deal at all.
 
You can't deny that is diminishes our standing internationally. If post-brexit Britain is going to succeed in anything like the way some of those who supported it hope it will then it will be in part because of our reputation and good standing in the world. This episode damages that. You don't think that is significant, other people do.
I agree - it will be partly down to our standing, but......

It will be mostly be down to being able to operate as an independent state and not being constrained by the EU in how we determine and implement policies for the good of the UK's citizens
 
Those examples were indeed the focus of Remainer comments along with trying to tie in Brexit supporters to be pro-Trump

Some of them - the usual suspects - just go wherever there is some opportunity to demean Brexit - no matter if it demonstrates double-standards and hypocrisy

Except that it isn't double-standards or hypocritical or, indeed, as binary as you would have it.

A trade deal with the US could be potentially damaging to areas such as health care and food standards so we need to be cautious and proceed mindful of the risks. We have to balance that with the undoubted fact that we have to strike trade deals to replace what we lose in leaving the EU. We are now being warned by senior figures in the US that the way we are behaving risks scuppering any such trade deal. If it pans out that way we no longer need to worry about the potential risks to the NHS but we do need to worry about the actual risk of having no trade deal, along with soured relations, with one of historically strongest allies.

That is not demeaning brexit it is making sure that the clowns running the country at the moment dont fuck that up along with everything else.
 
You don't think that is significant, other people do.

No it is significant, its wrong and i hope we don't do it and said so yesterday.

My issue is most do 2+2 and come out with 5 as the answer. Its always an extreme that will happen when nothing points to that as a reality.

Here we are and no country on earth will do any deals with us and its that narrative i call out because it is based on nothing.

Again, last year, the EU was accused of breaking international law on migrants. It was news for about 48 hours and no one gave a fuck. Norway suffered similar.........nothing happened.

I understand political opponents of the government and brexit will jump all over this, i just don't agree with their end of the world profestations but then i haven't agreed with them for the lsat 5 years.
 
Are you sure it isn’t about ensuring we retain similar standards in our regulations in future trade deals as we have now, as that was what the argument around a potential US trade deal was mainly about to me? As that wouldn’t be hypocritical or double standards at all.

I haven’t seen anyone saying they don’t want a deal at all.
I was trying to be careful not to lump you and other rational Remainers in with the 'usual suspects'

The usual suspects just want to demean Brexit/government/UK - they just want to stop Brexit

and - in the context that they have failed and we have left this means that they want us to remain under EU controls to prevent the UK being able to be successful as an independent state.

Their words and behaviour suggests that this is because:

a) they are genuinely ideologically committed to EU membership and therefore there may be a route for a failed UK to rejoin, or more likely

b) winning an argument on an internet forum is of greater importance than seeing the UK successful

There are not many of these posters but they dominate the subforum - check out the BBC comedy thread to see how quickly it was diverted by them.

Just my opinion but some of them only seem to post on political subjects and if you find a post from them on a football thread it generally reads as clunky/unfamiliar wording as if they just felt the need to occasionally post about CITY for image
 
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